4 ms·

If the allegations are true, yes, heads should roll. Why are there no examples of this wealth of evidence that has been claimed to exist?

enraged_camel 10y ago
I think what the parent is implying is that it would be career suicide for anyone to make such serious accusations unless they have considerable evidence to back them up. I mean let's face it: Susan doesn't stand to gain much from publicly accusing her former employer of harboring and shielding sexual harassers, but she has a lot to lose. Heck, she probably has hurt her employment prospects quite a bit, since many future employers will label her as a "troublemaker" and refuse to hire her. My guess: Susan has hard evidence that she can use if Uber comes after her with a defamation lawsuit. Otherwise Uber management wouldn't bother with this investigation (not to mention publicly announce that there is an investigation).
- aisofteng 10y ago
  I will preface this comment by saying that I think this may be a true allegation just as much be a false allegation; I, like any other Internet commenter, do not know enough to be able to judge. What I do want to say, however, is that in the United States there is, in fact, currently a culture that not only favors women making accusations of sexism and harassment, but also one that makes it taboo to express the normal standard of "innocent until proven guilty" in cases when the accuser is a woman. To be clear, I am not saying that this accusation must be necessarily false or with some sort of ulterior motive. As far as I can tell, there are more than a few places in the US where this sort of thing not only exists but is considered normal, and that is a legitimate issue that needs correction ASAP. But we still have the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", and we do have the effect I mentioned above in cases where the accuser is female. In this case, we have a blog post and nothing more, and so I think it is not only premature but also morally and ethically wrong to bring the pitchforks out immediately.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    > culture that not only favors women making accusations of sexism and harassment No there isn't, or we wouldn't be having this conversation! Culture is tilted very heavily against the accuser and they are usually disbelieved and nothing is done. As in this case. Note that "innocent until proven guilty" is only the criminal standard of proof, whereas civil law is "balance of probabilities" and the court of public opinion .. well, that does whatever the hell it likes.
- gydfi 10y ago
  >I think what the parent is implying is that it would be career suicide for anyone to make such serious accusations unless they have considerable evidence to back them up. I dunno, remember Ellen Pao? Sued Kleiner Perkins for sex discrimination several times, lost over and over, but still managed to land in a position as "an investment partner at Kapor Capital,[2] the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact,[3] and co-founder of the diversity consulting non-profit organization Project Include". And that's after getting sacked from reddit, too. The nature of the "women in tech" scene is such that you can make a niche for yourself by complaining even if your complaints are later shown to be bullshit.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    > The nature of the "women in tech" scene is such that you can make a niche for yourself by complaining even if your complaints are later shown to be bullshit. I was trying to put you down with a joke, but I seem to momentarily be as unimaginative as a woman who hasn't yet gotten a 6-figure settlement. – It's false to claim that Pao's complaints were "shown to be bullshit". She simply failed to convince a jury – possibly made up of people like you. – I'm dumbfounded how any decent person could have watched the deluge of sewage that was the Pao case and not come away with sympathy for her. There were literally millions of people posting the vilest, meanest stuff about her – everywhere. – The current Reddit leadership has clearly expressed that Pao had to leave not because of anything she had actually done, but because of the insane hostility of users. - It's insane to believe that people would, in any meaningful number, systematically make up such claim, enjoy the process, and repeat it. From anything I've seen (possibly including this case), victims take extraordinary measure to avoid a lawsuit.
powera 10y ago
Verbal testimony IS a kind of evidence.

enraged_camel 10y ago

I think what the parent is implying is that it would be career suicide for anyone to make such serious accusations unless they have considerable evidence to back them up. I mean let's face it: Susan doesn't stand to gain much from publicly accusing her former employer of harboring and shielding sexual harassers, but she has a lot to lose. Heck, she probably has hurt her employment prospects quite a bit, since many future employers will label her as a "troublemaker" and refuse to hire her. My guess: Susan has hard evidence that she can use if Uber comes after her with a defamation lawsuit. Otherwise Uber management wouldn't bother with this investigation (not to mention publicly announce that there is an investigation).

aisofteng 10y ago
I will preface this comment by saying that I think this may be a true allegation just as much be a false allegation; I, like any other Internet commenter, do not know enough to be able to judge. What I do want to say, however, is that in the United States there is, in fact, currently a culture that not only favors women making accusations of sexism and harassment, but also one that makes it taboo to express the normal standard of "innocent until proven guilty" in cases when the accuser is a woman. To be clear, I am not saying that this accusation must be necessarily false or with some sort of ulterior motive. As far as I can tell, there are more than a few places in the US where this sort of thing not only exists but is considered normal, and that is a legitimate issue that needs correction ASAP. But we still have the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", and we do have the effect I mentioned above in cases where the accuser is female. In this case, we have a blog post and nothing more, and so I think it is not only premature but also morally and ethically wrong to bring the pitchforks out immediately.
- pjc50 10y ago
  > culture that not only favors women making accusations of sexism and harassment No there isn't, or we wouldn't be having this conversation! Culture is tilted very heavily against the accuser and they are usually disbelieved and nothing is done. As in this case. Note that "innocent until proven guilty" is only the criminal standard of proof, whereas civil law is "balance of probabilities" and the court of public opinion .. well, that does whatever the hell it likes.
gydfi 10y ago
>I think what the parent is implying is that it would be career suicide for anyone to make such serious accusations unless they have considerable evidence to back them up. I dunno, remember Ellen Pao? Sued Kleiner Perkins for sex discrimination several times, lost over and over, but still managed to land in a position as "an investment partner at Kapor Capital,[2] the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact,[3] and co-founder of the diversity consulting non-profit organization Project Include". And that's after getting sacked from reddit, too. The nature of the "women in tech" scene is such that you can make a niche for yourself by complaining even if your complaints are later shown to be bullshit.
- matt4077 10y ago
  > The nature of the "women in tech" scene is such that you can make a niche for yourself by complaining even if your complaints are later shown to be bullshit. I was trying to put you down with a joke, but I seem to momentarily be as unimaginative as a woman who hasn't yet gotten a 6-figure settlement. – It's false to claim that Pao's complaints were "shown to be bullshit". She simply failed to convince a jury – possibly made up of people like you. – I'm dumbfounded how any decent person could have watched the deluge of sewage that was the Pao case and not come away with sympathy for her. There were literally millions of people posting the vilest, meanest stuff about her – everywhere. – The current Reddit leadership has clearly expressed that Pao had to leave not because of anything she had actually done, but because of the insane hostility of users. - It's insane to believe that people would, in any meaningful number, systematically make up such claim, enjoy the process, and repeat it. From anything I've seen (possibly including this case), victims take extraordinary measure to avoid a lawsuit.

powera 10y ago

Verbal testimony IS a kind of evidence.