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"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team

"Culture was extremely heavy on the drinking;" For me this is a red flag. Booze + programming == pissed programming This leads to bad code also bad team dynamics. Ultimately this will reflect on the product and bottom line. For individuals this reads like a culture where the barrel is creating ^bad apples^. Not a good look on a resume.

luckydude 10y ago
Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in bootload's post? Seems pretty reasonable to me. Don't get me wrong, I like to drink, but drinking and programming don't mix well for me at least. I need my brain cells working, not partying, when I'm trying to write code. Maybe that's my age showing.
- bootload 10y ago
  "Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in boatload's post?" @luckeydude, it's a sort of reaction test for brogrammers who work in toxic environments. I can't think of any job (not after hours) where alcohol improves your performance and output.
- metafunctor 10y ago
  Probably because it's conflating drinking and misogyny. Drinking and programming surely don't mix well. However, a culture that involves, or even promotes, drinking and partying doesn't have to be misogynistic. I've worked in companies that held parties several times per week, with plenty of booze, and they were nothing like what was depicted in TFA.
  - bootload 10y ago
    "it's conflating drinking and misogyny." Good point @metafunctor, didn't even think of that.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  Because it's telling people something that might be true and makes them uncomfortable.
projektir 10y ago
We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems. It's generally done outside of work or for specific events, and I've never felt unsafe on any gathering where a lot of drinking was going on. This is a red herring, if anything. I think there's a difference between a culture where people drink a lot vs a culture where people get black out drunk and irresponsible with it, though, and maybe Uber is more like the latter.
- bootload 10y ago
  "We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems." Anecdotal. If drinking is done outside work/events this isn't what is being described in the article. What about the personal who a) don't drink or b) harassed by those who do? Drinking at work tells me the place isn't interested in performance or their customers.
  - projektir 10y ago
    > Anecdotal. Sure, but I'm not entirely sure what else you expect. Isn't your statement also anecdotal? > If drinking is done outside work/events this isn't what is being described in the article. Sorry, what article? It's not mentioned in the main OP, and the person a few parents up is talking about what sounds very much like events or after work happy hours. I can absolutely see how that can turn bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have to.
    - bootload 10y ago
      Are you really supporting drinking at work? Tell me about the great experiences through the eyes of other people. "talking about what sounds very much like events or after work happy hours" The number of engineers bleeding from uber suggests, drinking isn't ^the problem^ but one part of a bigger culture problem. Do you work at Uber?
      - mst 10y ago
vilmosi 10y ago
I don't think having a drinking culture means drinking while programming. Quite the opposite actually.
- bootload 10y ago
  "I don't think having a drinking culture means drinking while programming." What is the union of work, drinking culture and SRE (the job the article refers)?
Balgair 10y ago
... ahem, the Balmer Peak disagrees: https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/
- bootload 10y ago
  duty calls hey? https://www.xkcd.com/386/ https://www.xkcd.com/386/
  - Balgair 10y ago
    Ha! Guilty!
blhack 10y ago
I have to be honest, I know a lot of people who claim that they can write really good code if they've been drinking. I just absolutely do not understand how that is even possible. If I have ONE beer, it throws off my ability to write good code, or hold all of the concepts in my head. One of the weekly coworking meetups I go to always ends at a brewery (there is a brewery next door to the hackerspace where it is held), and while it is certainly a lot of fun being there brainstorming things, I don't understand how anybody gets actual code written after drinking.
- morgante 10y ago
  There are certain types of code which I can unequivocally write better after a few drinks. It's honestly mostly low-complexity drudge work which needs to get done but when sober I can't power through it as fast due to (a) boredom and (b) overanalysis of simple tasks. This certainly isn't all the code I write (far from it) and it's not for everyone, but it's definitely true for me. That's why I don't think saying alcohol and code can never mix is right, but I agree that it shouldn't be a daily occurrence or the central aspect of company culture. I don't think an optional, after-work happy hour on occasion is such a bad thing though.
- wheelerwj 10y ago
  > I know a lot of people who claim that they can write really good code if they've been drinking. i know a lot of people who say they drive better if they've been drinking too. Doesn't mean it's accurate.
  - prodigal_erik 10y ago
    Alcohol definitely blunts fast reflexes. If it also hinders coding, it's not for the same reason. If I had to guess, a little could fix anxiety and perfectionism, while a lot will leave you too incoherent to make something work at all.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      > If I had to guess, a little could fix anxiety and perfectionism This is exactly what happens to me, so I sometimes will code after a bottle of beer or a glass of whiskey. But it has to be little - more alcohol and I start losing focus.
PaulRobinson 10y ago
We have a "whiskey club", and regularly go to the pub where I work. We don't do it at lunchtime. We don't do it during the working day. 5:30pm on a Friday? Let's have a glass of whiskey together. Somebody joining/leaving, or we haven't been out together for a while? Let's go to the pub after work one evening. There is a #drinks channel in Slack where people who fancy a drink after work co-ordinate, and several of will grab each other once a week for a couple of pints. That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too.
- bootload 10y ago
  "That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too." Sounds like a more balanced view of what I've seen at some companies. Implies grown-ups are in charge.
- toothbrush 10y ago
  > As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. Except for the non-drinkers in your team. I suspect that they either a) feel left out, because a non-drinker at a pub has a boring time, and has to keep justifying their empty glass b) probably miss out on important decisions if a majority of the important people in a team are present, which is bad dynamics c) maybe your team doesn't have any non-drinkers. What does that tell you in terms of diversity / inclusiveness? I'm not pointing fingers at you specifically because you mention explicitly making plans around people who don't/won't drink, but i think there should be more awareness around this, especially since it can seep into the culture quite insidiously, and invisibly.
  - true_religion 10y ago
mc32 10y ago
Drinking at work, per se, is not inherently a bad thing. It really depends on culture. It depends on whether it's responsible drinking, social drinking, or it's irresponsible, Bing drinking. There are cultures where people have a beer or two or wine glass during lunch and these people are not typically misbehaved louts. But there is a responsible culture around the drinking.
madeofpalk 10y ago
Just because there's drinking at work, doesn't mean they drink while programming. I've worked at plenty of places with a social drinking culture and never could we be bothered to actually code and drink at the same time. Maybe we might have a boozy friday lunch every now and then, but usually retros and 'meetings' like that followed Also, I think the statement "extremely heavy on the drinking" is so subjective and up to personal interpretation.

luckydude 10y ago

Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in bootload's post? Seems pretty reasonable to me. Don't get me wrong, I like to drink, but drinking and programming don't mix well for me at least. I need my brain cells working, not partying, when I'm trying to write code. Maybe that's my age showing.

bootload 10y ago
"Why is this getting down voted? Am I missing something in boatload's post?" @luckeydude, it's a sort of reaction test for brogrammers who work in toxic environments. I can't think of any job (not after hours) where alcohol improves your performance and output.
metafunctor 10y ago
Probably because it's conflating drinking and misogyny. Drinking and programming surely don't mix well. However, a culture that involves, or even promotes, drinking and partying doesn't have to be misogynistic. I've worked in companies that held parties several times per week, with plenty of booze, and they were nothing like what was depicted in TFA.
- bootload 10y ago
  "it's conflating drinking and misogyny." Good point @metafunctor, didn't even think of that.
rodgerd 10y ago
Because it's telling people something that might be true and makes them uncomfortable.

projektir 10y ago

We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems. It's generally done outside of work or for specific events, and I've never felt unsafe on any gathering where a lot of drinking was going on. This is a red herring, if anything. I think there's a difference between a culture where people drink a lot vs a culture where people get black out drunk and irresponsible with it, though, and maybe Uber is more like the latter.

bootload 10y ago
"We have a pro-drinking culture at my company due to the nature of the business and I haven't found that it's causing any problems." Anecdotal. If drinking is done outside work/events this isn't what is being described in the article. What about the personal who a) don't drink or b) harassed by those who do? Drinking at work tells me the place isn't interested in performance or their customers.
- projektir 10y ago
  > Anecdotal. Sure, but I'm not entirely sure what else you expect. Isn't your statement also anecdotal? > If drinking is done outside work/events this isn't what is being described in the article. Sorry, what article? It's not mentioned in the main OP, and the person a few parents up is talking about what sounds very much like events or after work happy hours. I can absolutely see how that can turn bad, I'm just saying it doesn't have to.
  - bootload 10y ago
    Are you really supporting drinking at work? Tell me about the great experiences through the eyes of other people. "talking about what sounds very much like events or after work happy hours" The number of engineers bleeding from uber suggests, drinking isn't ^the problem^ but one part of a bigger culture problem. Do you work at Uber?
    - mst 10y ago

vilmosi 10y ago

I don't think having a drinking culture means drinking while programming. Quite the opposite actually.

bootload 10y ago
"I don't think having a drinking culture means drinking while programming." What is the union of work, drinking culture and SRE (the job the article refers)?

Balgair 10y ago

... ahem, the Balmer Peak disagrees: https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/

bootload 10y ago
duty calls hey? https://www.xkcd.com/386/ https://www.xkcd.com/386/
- Balgair 10y ago
  Ha! Guilty!

blhack 10y ago

I have to be honest, I know a lot of people who claim that they can write really good code if they've been drinking. I just absolutely do not understand how that is even possible. If I have ONE beer, it throws off my ability to write good code, or hold all of the concepts in my head. One of the weekly coworking meetups I go to always ends at a brewery (there is a brewery next door to the hackerspace where it is held), and while it is certainly a lot of fun being there brainstorming things, I don't understand how anybody gets actual code written after drinking.

morgante 10y ago
There are certain types of code which I can unequivocally write better after a few drinks. It's honestly mostly low-complexity drudge work which needs to get done but when sober I can't power through it as fast due to (a) boredom and (b) overanalysis of simple tasks. This certainly isn't all the code I write (far from it) and it's not for everyone, but it's definitely true for me. That's why I don't think saying alcohol and code can never mix is right, but I agree that it shouldn't be a daily occurrence or the central aspect of company culture. I don't think an optional, after-work happy hour on occasion is such a bad thing though.
wheelerwj 10y ago
> I know a lot of people who claim that they can write really good code if they've been drinking. i know a lot of people who say they drive better if they've been drinking too. Doesn't mean it's accurate.
- prodigal_erik 10y ago
  Alcohol definitely blunts fast reflexes. If it also hinders coding, it's not for the same reason. If I had to guess, a little could fix anxiety and perfectionism, while a lot will leave you too incoherent to make something work at all.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    > If I had to guess, a little could fix anxiety and perfectionism This is exactly what happens to me, so I sometimes will code after a bottle of beer or a glass of whiskey. But it has to be little - more alcohol and I start losing focus.

PaulRobinson 10y ago

We have a "whiskey club", and regularly go to the pub where I work. We don't do it at lunchtime. We don't do it during the working day. 5:30pm on a Friday? Let's have a glass of whiskey together. Somebody joining/leaving, or we haven't been out together for a while? Let's go to the pub after work one evening. There is a #drinks channel in Slack where people who fancy a drink after work co-ordinate, and several of will grab each other once a week for a couple of pints. That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too.

bootload 10y ago
"That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too." Sounds like a more balanced view of what I've seen at some companies. Implies grown-ups are in charge.
toothbrush 10y ago
> As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. Except for the non-drinkers in your team. I suspect that they either a) feel left out, because a non-drinker at a pub has a boring time, and has to keep justifying their empty glass b) probably miss out on important decisions if a majority of the important people in a team are present, which is bad dynamics c) maybe your team doesn't have any non-drinkers. What does that tell you in terms of diversity / inclusiveness? I'm not pointing fingers at you specifically because you mention explicitly making plans around people who don't/won't drink, but i think there should be more awareness around this, especially since it can seep into the culture quite insidiously, and invisibly.
- true_religion 10y ago

mc32 10y ago

Drinking at work, per se, is not inherently a bad thing. It really depends on culture. It depends on whether it's responsible drinking, social drinking, or it's irresponsible, Bing drinking. There are cultures where people have a beer or two or wine glass during lunch and these people are not typically misbehaved louts. But there is a responsible culture around the drinking.

madeofpalk 10y ago

Just because there's drinking at work, doesn't mean they drink while programming. I've worked at plenty of places with a social drinking culture and never could we be bothered to actually code and drink at the same time. Maybe we might have a boozy friday lunch every now and then, but usually retros and 'meetings' like that followed Also, I think the statement "extremely heavy on the drinking" is so subjective and up to personal interpretation.