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I wrote two mails yesterday which basically "push back against upper management", for a very good reason. At least that's what I think. Now I'm totally terrifie

by kol 10y ago

I wrote two mails yesterday which basically "push back against upper management", for a very good reason. At least that's what I think. Now I'm totally terrified about what will happen tomorrow. I have 4 kids and almost no money in the bank.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tluyben2 10y ago
In some companies this is respected more than people who just obey. I would potentially promote you and I know big corp execs who would too but could be that it is more common here.
dbmikus 10y ago
As long as you're tactful and willing to cede your argument if they don't come to see your side, there shouldn't be any reason to be terrified. If you act diplomatically and still have crazy bosses, might be good to find a different job if you can, or just not care and get your paycheck.
- jaxn 10y ago
  Unfortunately it is not that simple. Sometimes pushing back on the management is an indication of misalignment of priorities. It may not happen right away, but it can definitely limit your tenure. I have been on both sides of this.
  - dbmikus 10y ago
    Surely not if you raise a point one time to get a sense of the waters. If the management doesn't like to hear opinions from subordinates, you could pick up that vibe and stop pushing back. It might require greater social and political tact than should be necessary, but no more than needed in normal life situations. Granted, social IQ is on a scale just like analytical analytical IQ. It would be nice for engineers if we could be blunt and to the point in our communications and let rationality win, but people aren't like that. I'm just arguing the other end of this, because I've sometimes seen engineers be abrasive while "technically correct", and then have it cause problems for them. Being pleasant in interactions is an important skill, and I feel like sometimes it gets disregarded. Again,sometimes even with tact and diplomacy, your bosses can still be unreasonable, and that sucks.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
edblarney 10y ago
Don't 'push back'. That is the wrong terminology, and it's inherently confrontational. Explain to your managers the range of outcomes and give them the power to make the decision with the best information you can provide them. i.e. 'if we skip this bit, then quality will likely suffer, with these kinds of expected outcomes'. Don't be dramatic or emotional, just try to give the best information you can. Also have sympathy for them - money does not grow on trees - and basically balancing quality vs. time-to-market is a constant and difficult challenge. This way - if they decided to 'rush' it - they know what the likely outcomes will be and the inherent outcomes. If they are making the decision then the responsibility falls on them to the extent that you have provided them with thoughtful and realistic assessment.
- michaelbuckbee 10y ago
  I think you're laying out what is absolutely the best approach. If you're an employee it's sometimes hard to separate the company's interests from your own, so I sometimes do a mental exercise I call "playing consultant" - where it's purely my job to "consult". I try to honestly describe the options, give my best recommendation and then whatever they choose is on them.
- watwut 10y ago
  Pretty much this. Sometimes pushing back is needed, but way more often "negotiation" is needed. It is unreasonable to expect managers to magically see into the development details, you have to explain, made plans transparent etc etc. When you do that you often (not always) find that requirements are negotiable and not equally important, e.g. it is possible to meet the deadline without sacrificing code quality. Oftentimes the compromise is possible - you wont get two week straight of refactoring, but they are ok with using 20% of development time for cleanups. I have seen developers "push back for the right thing" in a way that basically amounted to angry emotional outburst over things manager did not understood. The dude thought he is pushing for the right thing, but everyone else thought he does not listen to their needs, refuses to follow the company vision of the product replacing it by his own. (They wanted simplest possible functionality and fast, he was constantly adding own requirements to "make it better". When the same person pushes for yet another refactoring, management does not trust him.) The other thing to understand is that some experienced lead remembers teams that were given time, no deadlines and all the good stuff and then produced mess anyway, procrastinated and took long time to do it. I have seen that happen and I have also seen that ended in long wars over petty differences in style and opinions. Sometimes the mess is result of people doing something knew and thus bad decisions along the way. Code review alone wont solve that, because the reviewer may be the one forcing mistake on others. You need to communicate in the way that will ensure the manager that he or she is not in the above situation.

by kol 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tluyben2 10y ago

In some companies this is respected more than people who just obey. I would potentially promote you and I know big corp execs who would too but could be that it is more common here.

dbmikus 10y ago

As long as you're tactful and willing to cede your argument if they don't come to see your side, there shouldn't be any reason to be terrified. If you act diplomatically and still have crazy bosses, might be good to find a different job if you can, or just not care and get your paycheck.

jaxn 10y ago
Unfortunately it is not that simple. Sometimes pushing back on the management is an indication of misalignment of priorities. It may not happen right away, but it can definitely limit your tenure. I have been on both sides of this.
- dbmikus 10y ago
  Surely not if you raise a point one time to get a sense of the waters. If the management doesn't like to hear opinions from subordinates, you could pick up that vibe and stop pushing back. It might require greater social and political tact than should be necessary, but no more than needed in normal life situations. Granted, social IQ is on a scale just like analytical analytical IQ. It would be nice for engineers if we could be blunt and to the point in our communications and let rationality win, but people aren't like that. I'm just arguing the other end of this, because I've sometimes seen engineers be abrasive while "technically correct", and then have it cause problems for them. Being pleasant in interactions is an important skill, and I feel like sometimes it gets disregarded. Again,sometimes even with tact and diplomacy, your bosses can still be unreasonable, and that sucks.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

edblarney 10y ago

Don't 'push back'. That is the wrong terminology, and it's inherently confrontational. Explain to your managers the range of outcomes and give them the power to make the decision with the best information you can provide them. i.e. 'if we skip this bit, then quality will likely suffer, with these kinds of expected outcomes'. Don't be dramatic or emotional, just try to give the best information you can. Also have sympathy for them - money does not grow on trees - and basically balancing quality vs. time-to-market is a constant and difficult challenge. This way - if they decided to 'rush' it - they know what the likely outcomes will be and the inherent outcomes. If they are making the decision then the responsibility falls on them to the extent that you have provided them with thoughtful and realistic assessment.

michaelbuckbee 10y ago
I think you're laying out what is absolutely the best approach. If you're an employee it's sometimes hard to separate the company's interests from your own, so I sometimes do a mental exercise I call "playing consultant" - where it's purely my job to "consult". I try to honestly describe the options, give my best recommendation and then whatever they choose is on them.
watwut 10y ago
Pretty much this. Sometimes pushing back is needed, but way more often "negotiation" is needed. It is unreasonable to expect managers to magically see into the development details, you have to explain, made plans transparent etc etc. When you do that you often (not always) find that requirements are negotiable and not equally important, e.g. it is possible to meet the deadline without sacrificing code quality. Oftentimes the compromise is possible - you wont get two week straight of refactoring, but they are ok with using 20% of development time for cleanups. I have seen developers "push back for the right thing" in a way that basically amounted to angry emotional outburst over things manager did not understood. The dude thought he is pushing for the right thing, but everyone else thought he does not listen to their needs, refuses to follow the company vision of the product replacing it by his own. (They wanted simplest possible functionality and fast, he was constantly adding own requirements to "make it better". When the same person pushes for yet another refactoring, management does not trust him.) The other thing to understand is that some experienced lead remembers teams that were given time, no deadlines and all the good stuff and then produced mess anyway, procrastinated and took long time to do it. I have seen that happen and I have also seen that ended in long wars over petty differences in style and opinions. Sometimes the mess is result of people doing something knew and thus bad decisions along the way. Code review alone wont solve that, because the reviewer may be the one forcing mistake on others. You need to communicate in the way that will ensure the manager that he or she is not in the above situation.