5 ms·

I like the article but I found the implied solution a little humorous. Just hire devs who are great coders, great communicators, stubborn enough to push back

I like the article but I found the implied solution a little humorous. Just hire devs who are great coders, great communicators, stubborn enough to push back against upper management, good hearted enough to sacrificed their own KPIs to focus on the success of their project, and massochistic enough to stick it out at an obviously poorly run project. Good luck Side note, for 15 years of experience the project doesn't seem that bad by a long shot. I only have ~7 years of experience and have seen some far worse code. I was just recently on a project that has some methods that take 8 call backs(project was greenfielded in Jan 2016) before that I was on a project where the development team copy and paste the source for the last web page every time they needed a new one, but not delete the initialization code that fetched the data from.the database. So the 18th screen they worked on had 26,000 lines of code and took 5 minutes to load. And every button click triggered a reload. So, add a new widget and boom, wait 5 minutes for a screen refresh.

busterarm 10y ago
> Just hire devs who are great coders, great communicators, stubborn enough to push back against upper management, good hearted enough to sacrificed their own KPIs to focus on the success of their project, and masochistic enough to stick it out at an obviously poorly run project. This is a pretty close description of the positions I find myself in as a dev and I don't think this combination of qualities makes me more hirable.
- psyc 10y ago
  It probably won't, because most of that isn't predictable (by the interviewer) at interview time. It could make you more valuable in your current job, though.
  - busterarm 10y ago
    invaluable, but they won't kick me more money. I asked.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Find another employer. Then negotiate from strength.
    - obstinate 10y ago
      Then, not invaluable. :-/
      - busterarm 10y ago
        They fired my whole team except for me. They would rather have fired me too, I'm sure. I get what you're saying though.
- hinkley 10y ago
  Also makes you a target for layoff rounds. The yes men are always safe. You should have your finances sorted out if you plan to stick to your principles.
- lsh 10y ago
  100% the same and I agree. getting fired and being worried that my next decision will get me fired has caused me all kinds of anxiety issues. I recently decided that given my personality I'm not well suited to working as an employee for an employer and have gone solo. I don't want to feel like a victim to bad management or that my future and personal worth are tied to a single company as good/bad as they may be. I want my efforts properly remunerated, I want my reputation to speak for itself. So while these traits may make you less hirable as an office worker, they may make you more hirable as an expensive contractor.
  - bartread 10y ago
    ^^^ I reached exactly the same epiphany, if you can call it that, about 3 years ago now. It might change someday but I can't be an employee any more. I just can't. I can't tolerate the idea of having so much of my time sucked up on something that offers so relatively little in the way of return. And I cannot cede my future to management any more; I have to own responsibility for it because, honestly, there's only so much future left for me (or for any of us).
  - tbrowbdidnso 10y ago
    I feel the same way. I jumped ship once but didn't have enough savings to ride it out. Getting independent work without a track record was extremely difficult. Looking back, I think most people going solo start as contractors and also diligently save at least a half year living expenses before hand. I've begun saving but it's slow going and I'm getting impatient. I greatly enjoy the feeling of making my own destiny and having employees to care for, the idea doesn't scare me as much as it seems to bother most people. In a position of leadership it's possible to build your own little utopia. It was a great feeling to build a bubble in a world that's usually shit, where a lucky few actually enjoyed their work and each other's company. Alas that opportunity has passed and it's nigh impossible to go from the job title developer to manager without climbing a ladder for years and brown-nosing. Anyways, how do you recommend getting started? Like most career devs my company has me locked down with contracts so the usual advice of starting a side business isn't possible.
dvt 10y ago
The irony is that some of those qualities are probably more likely to get you fired rather than valued.
- jaggederest 10y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair I've experienced this firsthand. Pushing for better development tooling and fixing problems instead of pushing features gets you a pink slip. Part of the reason I run my own shop now. It turns out the people most involved in estimating don't like it when you say that most estimates don't deliver any value.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- flukus 10y ago
  And this is in a climate where developers can often pick and choose their jobs. Imagine if code was more commodified?
kol 10y ago
I wrote two mails yesterday which basically "push back against upper management", for a very good reason. At least that's what I think. Now I'm totally terrified about what will happen tomorrow. I have 4 kids and almost no money in the bank.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tluyben2 10y ago
  In some companies this is respected more than people who just obey. I would potentially promote you and I know big corp execs who would too but could be that it is more common here.
- dbmikus 10y ago
  As long as you're tactful and willing to cede your argument if they don't come to see your side, there shouldn't be any reason to be terrified. If you act diplomatically and still have crazy bosses, might be good to find a different job if you can, or just not care and get your paycheck.
  - jaxn 10y ago
    Unfortunately it is not that simple. Sometimes pushing back on the management is an indication of misalignment of priorities. It may not happen right away, but it can definitely limit your tenure. I have been on both sides of this.
    - dbmikus 10y ago
      Surely not if you raise a point one time to get a sense of the waters. If the management doesn't like to hear opinions from subordinates, you could pick up that vibe and stop pushing back. It might require greater social and political tact than should be necessary, but no more than needed in normal life situations. Granted, social IQ is on a scale just like analytical analytical IQ. It would be nice for engineers if we could be blunt and to the point in our communications and let rationality win, but people aren't like that. I'm just arguing the other end of this, because I've sometimes seen engineers be abrasive while "technically correct", and then have it cause problems for them. Being pleasant in interactions is an important skill, and I feel like sometimes it gets disregarded. Again,sometimes even with tact and diplomacy, your bosses can still be unreasonable, and that sucks.
crdoconnor 10y ago
"stubborn enough to push back against upper management" Every conversation I've ever had with management about rewriting/refactoring has been fruitless. Now if I think it's necessary I just bake it into feature/bugfixing. The work takes ~20% longer which just means that features and bug-fixes take 20% longer to deliver. That doesn't really get pushback, whereas asking for an extra week to do some cleanup work certainly does.

busterarm 10y ago

> Just hire devs who are great coders, great communicators, stubborn enough to push back against upper management, good hearted enough to sacrificed their own KPIs to focus on the success of their project, and masochistic enough to stick it out at an obviously poorly run project. This is a pretty close description of the positions I find myself in as a dev and I don't think this combination of qualities makes me more hirable.

psyc 10y ago
It probably won't, because most of that isn't predictable (by the interviewer) at interview time. It could make you more valuable in your current job, though.
- busterarm 10y ago
  invaluable, but they won't kick me more money. I asked.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Find another employer. Then negotiate from strength.
  - obstinate 10y ago
    Then, not invaluable. :-/
    - busterarm 10y ago
      They fired my whole team except for me. They would rather have fired me too, I'm sure. I get what you're saying though.
hinkley 10y ago
Also makes you a target for layoff rounds. The yes men are always safe. You should have your finances sorted out if you plan to stick to your principles.
lsh 10y ago
100% the same and I agree. getting fired and being worried that my next decision will get me fired has caused me all kinds of anxiety issues. I recently decided that given my personality I'm not well suited to working as an employee for an employer and have gone solo. I don't want to feel like a victim to bad management or that my future and personal worth are tied to a single company as good/bad as they may be. I want my efforts properly remunerated, I want my reputation to speak for itself. So while these traits may make you less hirable as an office worker, they may make you more hirable as an expensive contractor.
- bartread 10y ago
  ^^^ I reached exactly the same epiphany, if you can call it that, about 3 years ago now. It might change someday but I can't be an employee any more. I just can't. I can't tolerate the idea of having so much of my time sucked up on something that offers so relatively little in the way of return. And I cannot cede my future to management any more; I have to own responsibility for it because, honestly, there's only so much future left for me (or for any of us).
- tbrowbdidnso 10y ago
  I feel the same way. I jumped ship once but didn't have enough savings to ride it out. Getting independent work without a track record was extremely difficult. Looking back, I think most people going solo start as contractors and also diligently save at least a half year living expenses before hand. I've begun saving but it's slow going and I'm getting impatient. I greatly enjoy the feeling of making my own destiny and having employees to care for, the idea doesn't scare me as much as it seems to bother most people. In a position of leadership it's possible to build your own little utopia. It was a great feeling to build a bubble in a world that's usually shit, where a lucky few actually enjoyed their work and each other's company. Alas that opportunity has passed and it's nigh impossible to go from the job title developer to manager without climbing a ladder for years and brown-nosing. Anyways, how do you recommend getting started? Like most career devs my company has me locked down with contracts so the usual advice of starting a side business isn't possible.

dvt 10y ago

The irony is that some of those qualities are probably more likely to get you fired rather than valued.

jaggederest 10y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair I've experienced this firsthand. Pushing for better development tooling and fixing problems instead of pushing features gets you a pink slip. Part of the reason I run my own shop now. It turns out the people most involved in estimating don't like it when you say that most estimates don't deliver any value.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
flukus 10y ago
And this is in a climate where developers can often pick and choose their jobs. Imagine if code was more commodified?

kol 10y ago

I wrote two mails yesterday which basically "push back against upper management", for a very good reason. At least that's what I think. Now I'm totally terrified about what will happen tomorrow. I have 4 kids and almost no money in the bank.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tluyben2 10y ago
In some companies this is respected more than people who just obey. I would potentially promote you and I know big corp execs who would too but could be that it is more common here.
dbmikus 10y ago
As long as you're tactful and willing to cede your argument if they don't come to see your side, there shouldn't be any reason to be terrified. If you act diplomatically and still have crazy bosses, might be good to find a different job if you can, or just not care and get your paycheck.
- jaxn 10y ago
  Unfortunately it is not that simple. Sometimes pushing back on the management is an indication of misalignment of priorities. It may not happen right away, but it can definitely limit your tenure. I have been on both sides of this.
  - dbmikus 10y ago
    Surely not if you raise a point one time to get a sense of the waters. If the management doesn't like to hear opinions from subordinates, you could pick up that vibe and stop pushing back. It might require greater social and political tact than should be necessary, but no more than needed in normal life situations. Granted, social IQ is on a scale just like analytical analytical IQ. It would be nice for engineers if we could be blunt and to the point in our communications and let rationality win, but people aren't like that. I'm just arguing the other end of this, because I've sometimes seen engineers be abrasive while "technically correct", and then have it cause problems for them. Being pleasant in interactions is an important skill, and I feel like sometimes it gets disregarded. Again,sometimes even with tact and diplomacy, your bosses can still be unreasonable, and that sucks.

crdoconnor 10y ago

"stubborn enough to push back against upper management" Every conversation I've ever had with management about rewriting/refactoring has been fruitless. Now if I think it's necessary I just bake it into feature/bugfixing. The work takes ~20% longer which just means that features and bug-fixes take 20% longer to deliver. That doesn't really get pushback, whereas asking for an extra week to do some cleanup work certainly does.