5 ms·

I tend to go to bed around 11pm each night and awake at 7am (even on the weekends as I have young kids) and I still feel like I am lacking sleep and I am often

I tend to go to bed around 11pm each night and awake at 7am (even on the weekends as I have young kids) and I still feel like I am lacking sleep and I am often tried during the day. This I know is direct a result of my (poor) quality of sleep. I often wake up in the middle of the night and have trouble getting back to sleep. I have tried a few things to address this: sleep apnoea tests, having coffee cut off at 2pm, I run redshift on my laptop (light balancer). I don't smoke or drink and I am not over weight. I feel I still have a ton of sleep debt from my two children. Prior to having kids I never felt tired and could have really long deep sleeps. My wife then had our first and then second daughter and its not to often I have had a night of sleep without someone waking up the family at 3am in the night. They are getting better now (3 & 7 years old), but my sleep is not recovering with them maturing in their own ability to sleep all night. I often joke to my wife I would like to be hospitalised for two weeks and put on a large dosage of Morphine coupled with a food drip and just crash for two weeks. I do need to get on top of this though, as it really can interfere with my work (programmer). I feel tired a lot. I work from home, and I quite often pull out the futon in my home office and crash for 30 minutes in the afternoon.

guitarbill 10y ago
what about exercise? i know it's the obvious thing to say, but i thought i was getting enough exercise and still didn't sleep properly. turns out i wasn't, and it really helped me. it doesn't have to be heavy exercise every day. i try and hit 10000 steps on non-sports days, even if it's just from strolling around in the evening. i also got a standing desk, which i enjoy because it makes me feel physically as tired as i feel mentally after a long day at work. but i think the little things can add up quickly.
- magic_beans 10y ago
  Exercise within 3-4 hours of bedtime is an antagonist to restful sleep, though!
sreenadh 10y ago
I too had a sleep issue. Exercise, food, hydration & darkness is vital. Just a brisk 30 mins walk will be fine. Have food 3-4 hrs before sleep. Don't overdo the water, but you should be hydrated. My bedroom is near a street light, so, I started to close the curtain & put sheet over it just to ensure the room is very dark. All these helped me to get over my sleep issues.
ENTP 10y ago
I know what you're talking about and have imagined hospitalisation myself. What seems to be adding up for me is "adrenal fatigue". Check it out.
- pgt 10y ago
  Can you link to any reliable resources, please?
- lowmagnet 10y ago
  The adrenal system can become stressed to the point where inputs to the adrenal gland signals for less cortisol. Addison's Disease, which is diagnosable, results in less cortisol than the body needs, causing as one of many side-effects general fatigue. But "adrenal fatigue", where the adrenal gland "shrivels up" because it is working too hard, is mostly a myth. Several other factors are in play, and the hormones in your body are controlled by several glands and linked in a complex system of signals. Rarely does only one thing contribute to symptoms.
throwaway_374 10y ago
Specifically with regards waking up at 3 am and not being able to fall asleep again, the best thing that worked for me was going for a 30-45 minutes walk round 6-8 pm before dinner and crashing on the couch. Also herbal calming remedies are good.
dsego 10y ago
Sleep for 1-2 hours after lunch, my parents have been doing this for as long as I remember. Although, they are teachers, not working 9-5. And check your thyroid, hormone levels and blood sugar. Try taking magnesium before sleep.
CalRobert 10y ago
This depends a lot on your surroundings, but could ear plugs be worth trying? When I first started trying them I slept the same amount of time but _much_ better, possibly due to less interruption from passing vehicles, my partner waking to use the restroom, etc. Anyway, just a thought. In the middle of winter I also find I sometimes settle in to falling asleep around 9, waking for 2 or so hours around 2 AM, and then sleeping again from 4-7 or 8 AM. Not everyone has that luxury, though.
beachstartup 10y ago
you're eating foods that spike your insulin in the afternoon, and probably not getting enough exercise.
plantain 10y ago
I spent a few years oncall overnight at a company with very high pager load, and my sleep seems irreparably damaged in the same way. I wake up in the night and can't get back to sleep, and I almost always wake up well before my alarm (after 6-7 hours), even though I still feel tired and remain tired through the day. I think there's something here, but I haven't figured out what or how to fix it. Things I've found that have helped: A thorough eyemask and good earplugs reduce the awakenings and help me sleep in a bit longer. An air conditioner that runs into the morning to keep it cool - I think the air temperature warming after the sun comes up starts to trigger wakefulness? Cutting out sugar and caffeine after 6pm, which helps getting to sleep a little.
- Eridrus 10y ago
  Any recommendations on an air conditioner that would work when it's below freezing outside, but too hot inside?
  - tomrod 10y ago
    If you don't have control over the heating being on, a cracked window goes a long way. My (very, very dated) dorm my freshman year ran the heat 24/7, often up to 85 degrees. Cracking a window kept it a pleasant 72 degrees. Wasteful? Absolutely. But worked with the constraints given.
    - Eridrus 10y ago
      Sadly it's hard to get a precise temperature this way when it's 30F oitside. Waking up cold isn't much better than waking up hot.
      - randomdata 10y ago
        This is Hacker News though. A thermostatically controlled actuator, or similar, will fix that up.
        10y ago
robert_tweed 10y ago
Have you tried melatonin? I have tried a lot of things to help get to sleep at a specific time and melatonin isn't great for that. What I do find is that it causes me to sleep very deeply, often making it harder than usual to get up the next morning. Since melatonin is a hormone, it's best to avoid taking it for too long or you can get adaptive / rebound effects (i.e., it stops working then you get withdrawal when you stop taking it, making things worse). It's recommended to take for a week or two, then stop and hope it's caused your circadian rhythm to reset (there is some evidence that it can do this). It's often recommended for jet lag and not so much for chronic sleep disorders, for this reason. More info: https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep
- wahnfrieden 10y ago
  Just be careful about what melatonin you take: http://www.consumerreports.org/melatonin/study-questions-ingredient-levels-some-melatonin-supplements/ http://www.consumerreports.org/melatonin/study-questions-ing... Melatonin is also most effective at smaller doses, conterintuitively; try 300mcg instead of the more common 3-5mg doses. Sorry for no source on this, Googling around will help.
  - uhhyeahdude 10y ago
    >Melatonin is also most effective at smaller doses, conterintuitively; try 300mcg instead of the more common 3-5mg doses. Sorry for no source on this, Googling around will help. This is not necessarily true. The effects of exogenous melatonin ingestion vary from individual to individual; quantity and quality of the supplement are but two variables, and they do not affect everyone the same way; in fact, they are unlikely to maintain a given measure of "effectiveness" in a single individual over time There are many factors to take into account when it comes to sleep quality and duration; melatonin, as an exceptionally powerful hormone and powerful antioxidant, is something endogeneous. Tinkering with endogeneous hormones while we stil make them is risky. Tinkering with those that are essential to daily life and well-being is not necessarily foolish, but it should be approached with caution and respect. Take a cycle of anabolic steroids for periods during which one is exhausted or overworked; it might work in the short term (if you are male, in good health, and exercise, it probably will), to better increase ability and recovery. However, there is always a risk of forever damaging one's ability to produce those compounds internally. This doesn't happen as often as one might think, because it is understood (both in the performance-enhancement world and the post-35 male world, that there might not be a return ticket - and there are now proven methods for preventing shutdown. Athletic medicine and its human test subjects in the highly networked world of steroid use have understood this for some time, and have made it much safer to take a cycle of testosterone and come back to baseline post-cycle; they understand the risks and are willing to take them. TRT patients are ok with the trade-off of meds-for-life in order to feel OK again. I think one would be wise to, at the very least, approach melatonin with caution and know how limited our understanding of hormonal feedback loops, up/down-regulation, cascades and downstream effects... SNP mutations... before taking melatonin. Better to take Zyrem. If you don't know what it is, google it for laughs. You'll never get a prescription; however it is one of the best, simplest sleep medications around. It has the advantage of being simple in a pharmacokinetic and MOA sense, along the lines of z-drugs or *azepams, without most of their most severe drawbacks. Excepting cost of buying it pharma-regulated, the unlikelihood of ever getting a prescription in the first place, and the fact that some people enjoy it to the point of habituation and dependence. The same cannot be said for melatonin, but why go for a master hormone? My sleep sucks, but I've improved it to the extent I care by incremental lifestyle changes. I'm back in school now, and I'm all over the place. Sleep when I can. Stay up until I know, absolutely know that I have done damage to my next-day performance. I don't know how else to get the work done, except cheat. Maybe that's the ticket? It seems like it is more or less accepted, if not spoken of. Oh, I take melatonin sometimes. I take it for it's antioxidant properties. Usually I take other things to clean up my oxidative damage, and have a lot of green tea, but a heavy dose (much more than recommended), every once in a while, seems to do me a world of good. I started taking melatonin off and on when I was sixteen, so I am fairly certain I've done whatever damage there is to do. I feel like crap when I take it regularly, however. Dark room, quiet, no screens, calm evenings, and if at all possible, waking up with the sun - for those in urban areas, this is not natural, or wasn't for me - but if you ge a week outside of civilization, without electronics - see what happens. I can't live like that all the time, but I sure want to. I'm procrastinating, and sleepy. Oh, parent was right about the prevailing wisdom, whatever that means, about melatonin dosage. Currently. And I'm not citing either, because I'm not a professional, just an experienced layperson.
kovek 10y ago
I would like to bring up a little trick that I learned from Tim Ferriss. Apparently, two spoons I've apple cider vinegar, a spoon of honey in a glass of hot water. Has anyone here tried this? Does anyone know why that helps?
- benp84 10y ago
  Tim Ferriss has "a little trick" to supposedly solve every complicated life problem in 2 minutes.
cauterized 10y ago
Try cutting out caffeine entirely, starting 10 hours before bedtime each day. It will improve your sleep quality. Also, see if you can figure out what your sleep cycle length is. For most of us it's somewhere around 90 minutes, roughly. It's easiest to wake up between sleep cycles rather than in the middle of one because we sleep most lightly at the beginning and end of a cycle. You can feel refreshed and alert waking after a while number of cycles even if you still need more rest. Whereas waking mid-cycle feels miserable and groggy even if you technically got more sleep. Once you figure out your sleep cycle length and how long it takes you to fall asleep (8 hours is 5 90-minute cycles plus 30 min to fall asleep), you can work out how long you need to stay in bed to catch up on sleep. Adding a fractional number of cycles won't help much, and you'll feel groggy again upon waking. Adding a whole number of cycles will help you catch up and feel rested. Since you're married, can you and your spouse take turns crashing at 6pm for a couple weeks to catch up? It might also help to sleep in separate beds when you're extra tired - sharing a bed with someone whose sleep cycles aren't perfectly aligned with yours can interfere with sleep. Other tricks can help with that too - such as getting separate blankets.
- mingabunga 10y ago
  I found this book to be extra helpful https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ISFAU1W/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o03_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ISFAU1W/ref=oh_aui_d_de... Written by sleep expert Nick Littlehales who consults to major sports teams/athletes where they just have to get it right all the time. They even made custom beds to take with them when being away. Anyway, he talks about the 90 minute sleep cycles you mention amongst many other things.
randomsearch 10y ago
Meditation may help.
coldtea 10y ago
>I often wake up in the middle of the night That might not be that unnatural as sleeping for 8 hours straight: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783
dominotw 10y ago
I have a counter intuitive suggestion: sleep restriction. Force yourself to sleep less and less every day till your body craves deep sleep more than anything. You can directly go into deep sleep as soon as your head hits the pillow. Stay away from bed unless you are dying to go to bed, don't read, browse ect in your bed.
SnacksOnAPlane 10y ago
I take Vyvanse every day and it really helps with this. It's basically adderall, but instead of being released all at once, it's slowly metabolized into an amphetamine by your liver. Some people have horrid experiences with it (my friend couldn't sleep for 2 days) but it works like a charm for me. Maybe ask your doc about it?
nylonstrung 10y ago
Make sure you get an apnea test that is sensitive to UARS, a hard to detect form of minor apnea that is massively underdiagnosed.

guitarbill 10y ago

what about exercise? i know it's the obvious thing to say, but i thought i was getting enough exercise and still didn't sleep properly. turns out i wasn't, and it really helped me. it doesn't have to be heavy exercise every day. i try and hit 10000 steps on non-sports days, even if it's just from strolling around in the evening. i also got a standing desk, which i enjoy because it makes me feel physically as tired as i feel mentally after a long day at work. but i think the little things can add up quickly.

magic_beans 10y ago
Exercise within 3-4 hours of bedtime is an antagonist to restful sleep, though!

sreenadh 10y ago

I too had a sleep issue. Exercise, food, hydration & darkness is vital. Just a brisk 30 mins walk will be fine. Have food 3-4 hrs before sleep. Don't overdo the water, but you should be hydrated. My bedroom is near a street light, so, I started to close the curtain & put sheet over it just to ensure the room is very dark. All these helped me to get over my sleep issues.

ENTP 10y ago

I know what you're talking about and have imagined hospitalisation myself. What seems to be adding up for me is "adrenal fatigue". Check it out.

pgt 10y ago
Can you link to any reliable resources, please?
lowmagnet 10y ago
The adrenal system can become stressed to the point where inputs to the adrenal gland signals for less cortisol. Addison's Disease, which is diagnosable, results in less cortisol than the body needs, causing as one of many side-effects general fatigue. But "adrenal fatigue", where the adrenal gland "shrivels up" because it is working too hard, is mostly a myth. Several other factors are in play, and the hormones in your body are controlled by several glands and linked in a complex system of signals. Rarely does only one thing contribute to symptoms.

throwaway_374 10y ago

Specifically with regards waking up at 3 am and not being able to fall asleep again, the best thing that worked for me was going for a 30-45 minutes walk round 6-8 pm before dinner and crashing on the couch. Also herbal calming remedies are good.

dsego 10y ago

Sleep for 1-2 hours after lunch, my parents have been doing this for as long as I remember. Although, they are teachers, not working 9-5. And check your thyroid, hormone levels and blood sugar. Try taking magnesium before sleep.

CalRobert 10y ago

This depends a lot on your surroundings, but could ear plugs be worth trying? When I first started trying them I slept the same amount of time but _much_ better, possibly due to less interruption from passing vehicles, my partner waking to use the restroom, etc. Anyway, just a thought. In the middle of winter I also find I sometimes settle in to falling asleep around 9, waking for 2 or so hours around 2 AM, and then sleeping again from 4-7 or 8 AM. Not everyone has that luxury, though.

beachstartup 10y ago

you're eating foods that spike your insulin in the afternoon, and probably not getting enough exercise.

plantain 10y ago

I spent a few years oncall overnight at a company with very high pager load, and my sleep seems irreparably damaged in the same way. I wake up in the night and can't get back to sleep, and I almost always wake up well before my alarm (after 6-7 hours), even though I still feel tired and remain tired through the day. I think there's something here, but I haven't figured out what or how to fix it. Things I've found that have helped: A thorough eyemask and good earplugs reduce the awakenings and help me sleep in a bit longer. An air conditioner that runs into the morning to keep it cool - I think the air temperature warming after the sun comes up starts to trigger wakefulness? Cutting out sugar and caffeine after 6pm, which helps getting to sleep a little.

Eridrus 10y ago
Any recommendations on an air conditioner that would work when it's below freezing outside, but too hot inside?
- tomrod 10y ago
  If you don't have control over the heating being on, a cracked window goes a long way. My (very, very dated) dorm my freshman year ran the heat 24/7, often up to 85 degrees. Cracking a window kept it a pleasant 72 degrees. Wasteful? Absolutely. But worked with the constraints given.
  - Eridrus 10y ago
    Sadly it's hard to get a precise temperature this way when it's 30F oitside. Waking up cold isn't much better than waking up hot.
    - randomdata 10y ago
      This is Hacker News though. A thermostatically controlled actuator, or similar, will fix that up.
      - 10y ago

robert_tweed 10y ago

Have you tried melatonin? I have tried a lot of things to help get to sleep at a specific time and melatonin isn't great for that. What I do find is that it causes me to sleep very deeply, often making it harder than usual to get up the next morning. Since melatonin is a hormone, it's best to avoid taking it for too long or you can get adaptive / rebound effects (i.e., it stops working then you get withdrawal when you stop taking it, making things worse). It's recommended to take for a week or two, then stop and hope it's caused your circadian rhythm to reset (there is some evidence that it can do this). It's often recommended for jet lag and not so much for chronic sleep disorders, for this reason. More info: https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep

wahnfrieden 10y ago
Just be careful about what melatonin you take: http://www.consumerreports.org/melatonin/study-questions-ingredient-levels-some-melatonin-supplements/ http://www.consumerreports.org/melatonin/study-questions-ing... Melatonin is also most effective at smaller doses, conterintuitively; try 300mcg instead of the more common 3-5mg doses. Sorry for no source on this, Googling around will help.
- uhhyeahdude 10y ago
  >Melatonin is also most effective at smaller doses, conterintuitively; try 300mcg instead of the more common 3-5mg doses. Sorry for no source on this, Googling around will help. This is not necessarily true. The effects of exogenous melatonin ingestion vary from individual to individual; quantity and quality of the supplement are but two variables, and they do not affect everyone the same way; in fact, they are unlikely to maintain a given measure of "effectiveness" in a single individual over time There are many factors to take into account when it comes to sleep quality and duration; melatonin, as an exceptionally powerful hormone and powerful antioxidant, is something endogeneous. Tinkering with endogeneous hormones while we stil make them is risky. Tinkering with those that are essential to daily life and well-being is not necessarily foolish, but it should be approached with caution and respect. Take a cycle of anabolic steroids for periods during which one is exhausted or overworked; it might work in the short term (if you are male, in good health, and exercise, it probably will), to better increase ability and recovery. However, there is always a risk of forever damaging one's ability to produce those compounds internally. This doesn't happen as often as one might think, because it is understood (both in the performance-enhancement world and the post-35 male world, that there might not be a return ticket - and there are now proven methods for preventing shutdown. Athletic medicine and its human test subjects in the highly networked world of steroid use have understood this for some time, and have made it much safer to take a cycle of testosterone and come back to baseline post-cycle; they understand the risks and are willing to take them. TRT patients are ok with the trade-off of meds-for-life in order to feel OK again. I think one would be wise to, at the very least, approach melatonin with caution and know how limited our understanding of hormonal feedback loops, up/down-regulation, cascades and downstream effects... SNP mutations... before taking melatonin. Better to take Zyrem. If you don't know what it is, google it for laughs. You'll never get a prescription; however it is one of the best, simplest sleep medications around. It has the advantage of being simple in a pharmacokinetic and MOA sense, along the lines of z-drugs or *azepams, without most of their most severe drawbacks. Excepting cost of buying it pharma-regulated, the unlikelihood of ever getting a prescription in the first place, and the fact that some people enjoy it to the point of habituation and dependence. The same cannot be said for melatonin, but why go for a master hormone? My sleep sucks, but I've improved it to the extent I care by incremental lifestyle changes. I'm back in school now, and I'm all over the place. Sleep when I can. Stay up until I know, absolutely know that I have done damage to my next-day performance. I don't know how else to get the work done, except cheat. Maybe that's the ticket? It seems like it is more or less accepted, if not spoken of. Oh, I take melatonin sometimes. I take it for it's antioxidant properties. Usually I take other things to clean up my oxidative damage, and have a lot of green tea, but a heavy dose (much more than recommended), every once in a while, seems to do me a world of good. I started taking melatonin off and on when I was sixteen, so I am fairly certain I've done whatever damage there is to do. I feel like crap when I take it regularly, however. Dark room, quiet, no screens, calm evenings, and if at all possible, waking up with the sun - for those in urban areas, this is not natural, or wasn't for me - but if you ge a week outside of civilization, without electronics - see what happens. I can't live like that all the time, but I sure want to. I'm procrastinating, and sleepy. Oh, parent was right about the prevailing wisdom, whatever that means, about melatonin dosage. Currently. And I'm not citing either, because I'm not a professional, just an experienced layperson.

kovek 10y ago

I would like to bring up a little trick that I learned from Tim Ferriss. Apparently, two spoons I've apple cider vinegar, a spoon of honey in a glass of hot water. Has anyone here tried this? Does anyone know why that helps?

benp84 10y ago
Tim Ferriss has "a little trick" to supposedly solve every complicated life problem in 2 minutes.

cauterized 10y ago

Try cutting out caffeine entirely, starting 10 hours before bedtime each day. It will improve your sleep quality. Also, see if you can figure out what your sleep cycle length is. For most of us it's somewhere around 90 minutes, roughly. It's easiest to wake up between sleep cycles rather than in the middle of one because we sleep most lightly at the beginning and end of a cycle. You can feel refreshed and alert waking after a while number of cycles even if you still need more rest. Whereas waking mid-cycle feels miserable and groggy even if you technically got more sleep. Once you figure out your sleep cycle length and how long it takes you to fall asleep (8 hours is 5 90-minute cycles plus 30 min to fall asleep), you can work out how long you need to stay in bed to catch up on sleep. Adding a fractional number of cycles won't help much, and you'll feel groggy again upon waking. Adding a whole number of cycles will help you catch up and feel rested. Since you're married, can you and your spouse take turns crashing at 6pm for a couple weeks to catch up? It might also help to sleep in separate beds when you're extra tired - sharing a bed with someone whose sleep cycles aren't perfectly aligned with yours can interfere with sleep. Other tricks can help with that too - such as getting separate blankets.

mingabunga 10y ago
I found this book to be extra helpful https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ISFAU1W/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o03_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ISFAU1W/ref=oh_aui_d_de... Written by sleep expert Nick Littlehales who consults to major sports teams/athletes where they just have to get it right all the time. They even made custom beds to take with them when being away. Anyway, he talks about the 90 minute sleep cycles you mention amongst many other things.

randomsearch 10y ago

Meditation may help.

coldtea 10y ago

>I often wake up in the middle of the night That might not be that unnatural as sleeping for 8 hours straight: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16964783

dominotw 10y ago

I have a counter intuitive suggestion: sleep restriction. Force yourself to sleep less and less every day till your body craves deep sleep more than anything. You can directly go into deep sleep as soon as your head hits the pillow. Stay away from bed unless you are dying to go to bed, don't read, browse ect in your bed.

SnacksOnAPlane 10y ago

I take Vyvanse every day and it really helps with this. It's basically adderall, but instead of being released all at once, it's slowly metabolized into an amphetamine by your liver. Some people have horrid experiences with it (my friend couldn't sleep for 2 days) but it works like a charm for me. Maybe ask your doc about it?

nylonstrung 10y ago

Make sure you get an apnea test that is sensitive to UARS, a hard to detect form of minor apnea that is massively underdiagnosed.