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One thing the study didn't mention (or that I missed) was the familiarity of those animals with actual mirrors? I know that nearly all the cats and dogs I have

One thing the study didn't mention (or that I missed) was the familiarity of those animals with actual mirrors? I know that nearly all the cats and dogs I have known in my life have freaked out majorly when they first see themselves in a mirror, but it doesn't take them very long to figure out that the reflection is OK and become comfortable with it. Perhaps they 'learn' that (a) it is themselves, rather than another animal, or (b) they just figure because their reflection hasn't attacked them, it is harmless, or (c) The reflection is not responding as another cat/dog would to aggressive and friendly behaviours and should be ignored? Intriguing.

ZeroFries 10y ago
My dog seems to get sketched out when I make faces at it in the mirror. It seems like he doesn't really know what to make of it, but uses it as predictive power none-the-less (he's seen me reach for a leash in a window reflection and got excited). I think they know the image is on a 2D surface though, because they don't react to dogs on TV either.
M_Grey 10y ago
The image also has no smell or sound associated with it. In a human's life, it would be like smelling something familiar, but not seeing or hearing anything. You'd conclude it was just the wind, whatever, and move on. Whatever the mystery might be, you know it's not that familiar thing, because you'd see that. A dog's sense of smell is like that for them, in the way that sight is for us.
- smhost 10y ago
  I don't know much about brains so this might be a nonsense question, but how sure are we that dogs experience human emotions and that the behavior we associate with human emotions isn't something dogs evolved to take advantage of us? Or is that the same thing as human emotions?
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    No one knows what another person, never mind another animal experiences. It's all a matter of inference, and testing which yields consistent results. Dogs certainly appear to be both very aware of the human emotional state, and to have their own emotional landscape. That said, I wouldn't say that they're "human emotions". They're dogs... they're very different, but different and "less" are not the same thing. As for your last point, if that's the case, would that be "taking advantage"? At some point, if the behavior is mutual and mutually beneficial, and no one can tell the difference between sincere altruism and some fundamentally selfish motive... does it matter? Ironically I will say that the view you're considering at the end, when applies to humans is called "cynicism" from the ancient Greek "Kynikos" which meant "Dog-like". This is Cynic, in the philosophical sense, not the pejorative by the way... the belief that people act out of their own self-interest; even charity is done because it makes us feel good. The counter-argument being, "And?"
    - smhost 10y ago
      Huh. I should read more. Also, I meant "take advantage" in a strict sense. I love my dog and she can take advantage of me whenever she wants. <3
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        To be honest, I know what you meant, but I saw an opportunity to pontificate and I leaped on it. Thanks for being a good sport about it, but hey, what else to be expected from someone who loves their pup?
    - woodandsteel 10y ago
      >No one knows what another person, never mind another animal experiences. The word "know" has many different meanings, so it depends which one you are using, and for what purpose. For many practical purposes we often can know perfectly well a good deal of what another person is experiencing. So for instance when we see someone walk up to a door and open it, we know that they saw the door, thought it would be desirable to walk through it, and knew how to open it.
- booleandilemma 10y ago
  Interesting. In the same vein, I can recognize my own image but I don't think I could recognize my own smell (not as easily anyway).
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    You actually can, but the smell has to be strong, such as the smell of an armpit after not showing for a few days. (Not that I would know anything about that... sniff sniff)

ZeroFries 10y ago

My dog seems to get sketched out when I make faces at it in the mirror. It seems like he doesn't really know what to make of it, but uses it as predictive power none-the-less (he's seen me reach for a leash in a window reflection and got excited). I think they know the image is on a 2D surface though, because they don't react to dogs on TV either.

M_Grey 10y ago

The image also has no smell or sound associated with it. In a human's life, it would be like smelling something familiar, but not seeing or hearing anything. You'd conclude it was just the wind, whatever, and move on. Whatever the mystery might be, you know it's not that familiar thing, because you'd see that. A dog's sense of smell is like that for them, in the way that sight is for us.

smhost 10y ago
I don't know much about brains so this might be a nonsense question, but how sure are we that dogs experience human emotions and that the behavior we associate with human emotions isn't something dogs evolved to take advantage of us? Or is that the same thing as human emotions?
- M_Grey 10y ago
  No one knows what another person, never mind another animal experiences. It's all a matter of inference, and testing which yields consistent results. Dogs certainly appear to be both very aware of the human emotional state, and to have their own emotional landscape. That said, I wouldn't say that they're "human emotions". They're dogs... they're very different, but different and "less" are not the same thing. As for your last point, if that's the case, would that be "taking advantage"? At some point, if the behavior is mutual and mutually beneficial, and no one can tell the difference between sincere altruism and some fundamentally selfish motive... does it matter? Ironically I will say that the view you're considering at the end, when applies to humans is called "cynicism" from the ancient Greek "Kynikos" which meant "Dog-like". This is Cynic, in the philosophical sense, not the pejorative by the way... the belief that people act out of their own self-interest; even charity is done because it makes us feel good. The counter-argument being, "And?"
  - smhost 10y ago
    Huh. I should read more. Also, I meant "take advantage" in a strict sense. I love my dog and she can take advantage of me whenever she wants. <3
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      To be honest, I know what you meant, but I saw an opportunity to pontificate and I leaped on it. Thanks for being a good sport about it, but hey, what else to be expected from someone who loves their pup?
  - woodandsteel 10y ago
    >No one knows what another person, never mind another animal experiences. The word "know" has many different meanings, so it depends which one you are using, and for what purpose. For many practical purposes we often can know perfectly well a good deal of what another person is experiencing. So for instance when we see someone walk up to a door and open it, we know that they saw the door, thought it would be desirable to walk through it, and knew how to open it.
booleandilemma 10y ago
Interesting. In the same vein, I can recognize my own image but I don't think I could recognize my own smell (not as easily anyway).
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  You actually can, but the smell has to be strong, such as the smell of an armpit after not showing for a few days. (Not that I would know anything about that... sniff sniff)