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Wiping the mark on its own body may be just a form of empathy. For example, when you see someone's yawning, you yawn yourself. Or when you see someone's hurt, y

by deepsun 10y ago

Wiping the mark on its own body may be just a form of empathy. For example, when you see someone's yawning, you yawn yourself. Or when you see someone's hurt, you literally may feel hurt yourself (there were studies showing that same brain areas are activated when you're OR somebody's else are in pain, laugh or else).

carussell 10y ago
Empathy is exactly where my thoughts led when trying to see how robust these tests really are. Watching the embedded video though, I think there's a strong case that elephants are definitively shown to understand that what's in the mirror is really them. Notice how the shot of one elephant shows that it has turned away from the mirror intent on washing away the mark around its own eye. It seems to knock down the empathy argument. An interesting aspect of the mirror test is what happens with multiple animals. Presumably it's well established that various types of animals recognize each other—that they associate identities with others. So when two bonobos (say) show up in front of a large mirror, surely they will recognize that one of the bonobos they're seeing in the mirror is the same as they one at its side. Bonobos and other apes are convincingly argued to be able to understand what's going on, so not that revealing. But what about dogs, for example, which certainly have some concept of identity in others, but somehow seem to fail the mirror test? And what about cross-species recognition? A dog seeing a familiar cat or human? A more convincing mirror test, I think, would be if you can silently introduce another animal to appear behind the one being tested. An animal that takes note of a predator or prey in the mirror (or opponent or friend) and then turns around to respond accordingly surely understands the implications of what's going on in the mirror.

by deepsun 10y ago

carussell 10y ago

Empathy is exactly where my thoughts led when trying to see how robust these tests really are. Watching the embedded video though, I think there's a strong case that elephants are definitively shown to understand that what's in the mirror is really them. Notice how the shot of one elephant shows that it has turned away from the mirror intent on washing away the mark around its own eye. It seems to knock down the empathy argument. An interesting aspect of the mirror test is what happens with multiple animals. Presumably it's well established that various types of animals recognize each other—that they associate identities with others. So when two bonobos (say) show up in front of a large mirror, surely they will recognize that one of the bonobos they're seeing in the mirror is the same as they one at its side. Bonobos and other apes are convincingly argued to be able to understand what's going on, so not that revealing. But what about dogs, for example, which certainly have some concept of identity in others, but somehow seem to fail the mirror test? And what about cross-species recognition? A dog seeing a familiar cat or human? A more convincing mirror test, I think, would be if you can silently introduce another animal to appear behind the one being tested. An animal that takes note of a predator or prey in the mirror (or opponent or friend) and then turns around to respond accordingly surely understands the implications of what's going on in the mirror.