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> If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but i

> If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but if I can somehow prove it, you're in trouble and I can ask for restitution for the psychological effect it had on me. I bet it's the same for all civilized countries. CoCs have nothing to do with the rest of the things you're saying. They are not enforceable by law, they won't get you any kind of conviction. Best case scenario, you shun the person that didn't adhere by it. Which guess what? You can do that anyways, without any CoC in place. So really, I have no clue why you think that redundant things like CoC have any practical use. EDIT: instead of downvotes just explain where I'm wrong. Too many feelings here, very few logical arguments.

hyperpape 10y ago
Aside from the minor detail that I ought not be legally prohibited from expressing my opinion that an idiot is an idiot, the even bigger issue is that this law is destined to protect powerful and corrupt people at the expense of their critics. There is a reason most dictators pass laws against insulting the monarchy. It has no hope of being fairly applied.
- rantanplan 10y ago
  You should add another minor detail, which is that I should not be legally prohibited from taking a walk, or walk my dog, without a crazy person following me around calling me an idiot. I would call that harassment/abuse. You can express your opinion on people in public office as much as you want. We weren't talking about Presidents and dictators though right? So maybe we should get back to the topic of how CoCs have no merit or practical use?
  - hyperpape 10y ago
    Depending on some details, that would quite possibly count as harassment or stalking. If, on the other hand, it's on twitter, you use the block button, and other private matters. And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was "codes of conduct are bad, but legally prosecuting people for the same thing would be great!"
    - rantanplan 10y ago
      <<And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was... >> No it wasn't. No reason to invent stuff that I supposedly said. You can re-read all my answers in this thread if you want.
      - hyperpape 10y ago
        It's exactly what you said: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667496.
        rantanplan 10y ago
        No it's not. CoC's try to cover from sexual harassment(which is covered by law) to general douchebaggery(which is subjective). In the first case it is obviously redundant and in the 2nd it is impossible, hence we end up doing what we would do anyway, which is to shun the individual. If there are obvious cases were something should be covered by law, just fix the laws(which is what I say in the link you pasted). It's all been discussed in this thread, so it's shame that you have me repeat them here :( I don't feel you have the intention for an honest conversation, as you don't seem to respond to anything I provided as arguments. Please feel free to ignore me, as I won't be able to keep checking up on this thread. Cheers
inimino 10y ago
Most of the downvotes are probably coming from the civilized countries where calling someone an idiot happens to be legal.
- rantanplan 10y ago
  That "civilized" country has too many feelings. Already covered what you said here :https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667840
pg314 10y ago
> Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but if I can somehow prove it, you're in trouble and I can ask for restitution for the psychological effect it had on me. Interesting. Does it happen often in practice? > I bet it's the same for all civilized countries. The US doesn't have such laws. Whether you consider the US civilised, is another matter. :) Do you want to exclude contributors from uncivilised countries? > CoCs have nothing to do with the rest of the things you're saying. They are not enforceable by law, they won't get you any kind of conviction. Best case scenario, you shun the person that didn't adhere by it. Which guess what? You can do that anyways, without any CoC in place. The goal of a CoC is to have a set of rules that the community agrees upon and to foster a certain culture. E.g. no personal attacks, constructive criticism only, be civil in your interaction with others on the project. The consequences of violating the CoC can be to ban the violator from the project. Wether you agree with those goals or not, it is the right of a community to decide which culture they like. And different communities will attract different kinds of people. Quite a few people choose not to contribute to the Linux kernel because of the abrasive leadership style of Linus. You might choose to not contribute to the Golang project. You argued that you don't need a CoC because the laws already cover the same ground. If your goal is to foster a certain culture, it is simply not feasible to use the law to enforce it. Hacker News has guidelines which are not dissimilar to a CoC, but less formalised: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Are they useless too in your opinion?
- rantanplan 10y ago
  > Interesting. Does it happen often in practice? Not really, but it does happen occasionally in work places, because if it happens often enough it is basically the equivalent of bullying(called mobbing at work). > The US doesn't have such laws. Whether you consider the US civilised, is another matter. :) Do you want to exclude contributors from uncivilised countries? It's because I consider US a civilized(and a very litigious) country that I'm sincerely surprised that its laws don't cover such things. > The goal of a CoC is to have a set of rules that the community agrees upon and to foster a certain culture. E.g. no personal attacks, constructive criticism only, be civil in your interaction with others on the project. The consequences of violating the CoC can be to ban the violator from the project. So basically what I described as "shunned" from the community. But previously you said: > Which jurisdiction? How will you find out about my identity? How will you enforce any potential judgment if I'm in Somalia? How much time and money will it cost you to a) get a conviction, and b) try to enforce it? So we agree that CoCs can't serve as substitutes for laws? The HN guidelines are a perfect example because the first half has practical use which is how to submit an article and the 2nd half which is indeed useless. Let's be honest here. What you're looking for is a magic wand that say "if you could please don't be an asshole, that'd be grand thanks" and people would be happily ever after. Right? Well there's no solution for that and CoCs can only serve as to infuriate people who aren't assholes. Just shun them as you would do with or without a CoC.

hyperpape 10y ago

Aside from the minor detail that I ought not be legally prohibited from expressing my opinion that an idiot is an idiot, the even bigger issue is that this law is destined to protect powerful and corrupt people at the expense of their critics. There is a reason most dictators pass laws against insulting the monarchy. It has no hope of being fairly applied.

rantanplan 10y ago
You should add another minor detail, which is that I should not be legally prohibited from taking a walk, or walk my dog, without a crazy person following me around calling me an idiot. I would call that harassment/abuse. You can express your opinion on people in public office as much as you want. We weren't talking about Presidents and dictators though right? So maybe we should get back to the topic of how CoCs have no merit or practical use?
- hyperpape 10y ago
  Depending on some details, that would quite possibly count as harassment or stalking. If, on the other hand, it's on twitter, you use the block button, and other private matters. And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was "codes of conduct are bad, but legally prosecuting people for the same thing would be great!"
  - rantanplan 10y ago
    <<And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was... >> No it wasn't. No reason to invent stuff that I supposedly said. You can re-read all my answers in this thread if you want.
    - hyperpape 10y ago
      It's exactly what you said: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667496.
      - rantanplan 10y ago
        No it's not. CoC's try to cover from sexual harassment(which is covered by law) to general douchebaggery(which is subjective). In the first case it is obviously redundant and in the 2nd it is impossible, hence we end up doing what we would do anyway, which is to shun the individual. If there are obvious cases were something should be covered by law, just fix the laws(which is what I say in the link you pasted). It's all been discussed in this thread, so it's shame that you have me repeat them here :( I don't feel you have the intention for an honest conversation, as you don't seem to respond to anything I provided as arguments. Please feel free to ignore me, as I won't be able to keep checking up on this thread. Cheers

inimino 10y ago

Most of the downvotes are probably coming from the civilized countries where calling someone an idiot happens to be legal.

rantanplan 10y ago
That "civilized" country has too many feelings. Already covered what you said here :https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667840

pg314 10y ago

> Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but if I can somehow prove it, you're in trouble and I can ask for restitution for the psychological effect it had on me. Interesting. Does it happen often in practice? > I bet it's the same for all civilized countries. The US doesn't have such laws. Whether you consider the US civilised, is another matter. :) Do you want to exclude contributors from uncivilised countries? > CoCs have nothing to do with the rest of the things you're saying. They are not enforceable by law, they won't get you any kind of conviction. Best case scenario, you shun the person that didn't adhere by it. Which guess what? You can do that anyways, without any CoC in place. The goal of a CoC is to have a set of rules that the community agrees upon and to foster a certain culture. E.g. no personal attacks, constructive criticism only, be civil in your interaction with others on the project. The consequences of violating the CoC can be to ban the violator from the project. Wether you agree with those goals or not, it is the right of a community to decide which culture they like. And different communities will attract different kinds of people. Quite a few people choose not to contribute to the Linux kernel because of the abrasive leadership style of Linus. You might choose to not contribute to the Golang project. You argued that you don't need a CoC because the laws already cover the same ground. If your goal is to foster a certain culture, it is simply not feasible to use the law to enforce it. Hacker News has guidelines which are not dissimilar to a CoC, but less formalised: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Are they useless too in your opinion?

rantanplan 10y ago
> Interesting. Does it happen often in practice? Not really, but it does happen occasionally in work places, because if it happens often enough it is basically the equivalent of bullying(called mobbing at work). > The US doesn't have such laws. Whether you consider the US civilised, is another matter. :) Do you want to exclude contributors from uncivilised countries? It's because I consider US a civilized(and a very litigious) country that I'm sincerely surprised that its laws don't cover such things. > The goal of a CoC is to have a set of rules that the community agrees upon and to foster a certain culture. E.g. no personal attacks, constructive criticism only, be civil in your interaction with others on the project. The consequences of violating the CoC can be to ban the violator from the project. So basically what I described as "shunned" from the community. But previously you said: > Which jurisdiction? How will you find out about my identity? How will you enforce any potential judgment if I'm in Somalia? How much time and money will it cost you to a) get a conviction, and b) try to enforce it? So we agree that CoCs can't serve as substitutes for laws? The HN guidelines are a perfect example because the first half has practical use which is how to submit an article and the 2nd half which is indeed useless. Let's be honest here. What you're looking for is a magic wand that say "if you could please don't be an asshole, that'd be grand thanks" and people would be happily ever after. Right? Well there's no solution for that and CoCs can only serve as to infuriate people who aren't assholes. Just shun them as you would do with or without a CoC.