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I think projects underestimate how off-putting Code of Conducts are. I won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to int

I think projects underestimate how off-putting Code of Conducts are. I won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. Giving people who are obsessed with political correctness a leg to stand on can be damaging to a community, and trying to placate such people via a CoC is a lost cause. On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. I don't think CoC deter such people anyway. So IMO there is simply no upside. Besides, any kind of potential drama is a no-go, I use my Github account for work. If I was younger, I'd probably start over again with a fresh github account that didn't have my real name attached to it. But not contributing seems like an easier solution.

tokenizerrr 10y ago
Yep. I won't even think about attempting to contribute to projects that have a CoC. Just look at https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 to see what will happen once you somehow upset one of the PC warriors.
- orcdork 10y ago
  You mean a whole bunch of people standing up to transphobia? because that's what i'm seeing.
  - tokenizerrr 10y ago
    I see a whole bunch of people who have absolutely nothing to do with the Opal project lose their shit about something absolutely unrelated to the Opal project on the Opal project issue tracker. They are demanding for action to be taken which hurts the Opal project (removing one of its contributors). This is an absolute waste of time for anyone who is actually affiliated with the Opal project. But sure, let's call that "standing up to transphobia".
    - orcdork 10y ago
      I guess we both see what we want to see.
      - zigzigzag 10y ago
        The guy was targeted because he was a man who they saw a chance to attack, in order to intimidate people with similar political views. CoC violations are called "cock violations" for a reason.
  - prodigal_erik 10y ago
    Is that supposed to become the goal of the Opal project, censoring twitter? Because it doesn't have anything to do with their software. Kicking out a programmer because of his off-list opinions on transsexuality is like kicking out a movie actor because of his off-screen opinions on communism. People who can't agree to disagree are the problem.
StreakyCobra 10y ago
I'm in the same boat as you, maybe a little bit less categorical about whether to contribute to projects with CoC. I'm thinking twice before contributing to them, especially for the ones that use it as a showcase, but for sure if once someone start complaining because I made a joke, they won't see me again. For conference I'm even more careful, because of the IRL factor. And when conference use CoC as a showcase, it's a no go. Pycon is on my blacklist for instance. What I like the most is how they harass people based on a code that said people should not be harassed, because they «do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form». I'm pretty sure I will never be concerned by this because I'm really respectful, but I like jokes in general, about everything. I'm too afraid to become the target of SJWs that have a code that let them harass people because they are not happy with their opinions.
rebeccaskinner 10y ago
I think projects underestimate how off-putting Code of Conducts are. I won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. These days I try not to contribute to any project that doesn't have a CoC. The project I help maintain does, as do the communities I moderate. If someone can't create a PR without saying things that are racist, misogynist, etc. then frankly I don't want them in my community. If someone is going to be put off by the fact that mightn't be able to say something hateful if they decided they wanted to, then I'd rather not have that person in my community. Giving people who are obsessed with political correctness a leg to stand on can be damaging to a community, and trying to placating such people via a CoC is a lost cause. I think that's a very negative way of looking at a CoC. Where you see "people who are obsessed with political correctness", I see "people who are tired of being constantly shit on by the vocal jerks in online communities". It's not placating, it's simply valuing people's right to contribute and participate peacefully over other people's right to be jackasses. Sure, you can do that without a CoC, but the CoC is a good signal to people that the people who are moderating the community are on their side. On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. I don't think CoC deter such people anyway. So IMO there is simply no upside. I disagree with the assertion that CoCs don't deter people in a community; I have seen first-hand where having a code of conduct was a way of resolving something that was quickly getting out hand and was likely to have ended up with some great contributors leaving the project because they were being harassed by others. I wasn't going to convince the harassers that they were wrong about what they were saying, and I certainly wasn't going to convince the people being harassed that they should stick around in a community that was being hostile. Most people were either unaware of the threat, or else not directly affected and stayed quiet. The CoC was something of a final arbiter to put a stop to the harassment, and I had tried diligently to do so before putting on my admin hat or pulling out the CoC. I've seen many other situations where similar things have played out. Without CoCs people would have either been banned from the project, or others would have left, being able to put a stop to something has helped. Besides, any kind of potential drama is a no-go, I use my Github account for work. If I was younger, I'd probably start over again with a fresh github account that didn't have my real name attached to it. But not contributing seems like an easier solution. If you're neither a maintainer or community moderator, nor violating the CoC, then I don't see where the drama would come in. I have my real name attached to my github account, to the meetups I run, and the slack communities I moderate. I deal with CoC violations at times, and certainly my own harassment, but I'm not worried about "drama" effecting my reputation because I stand by my own behaviors and by my belief in the value of not letting people harass others and crate hostile toxic environments.
adekok 10y ago
> won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. Here's mine: http://freeradius.org/list/ http://freeradius.org/list/ --- The only permitted topic on the list is technical discussion related to FreeRADIUS. Off topic messages will result in a warning. Continued misbehavior will result in the person being unsubscribed from the list, and permanently banned. --- I sympathize with your position. When people started asking me for a code of conduct, I wrote the above. The trigger for me to write the above was a situation where someone complained on the list about "bad behavior", and asked for civility. When it was pointed out that the "bad behavior" was a technical answer to a technical question, they responded with cursing and insults. Cue... ban. Some people read simple technical answers go here and read this file as an emotional response of "go F yourself". They instead want answers to be "inclusive" to the point of smarmy pandering. My $0.02 is that if you want technical answers to a technical problem, you're welcome on a software forum. Otherwise, if you want online friends, play a MMO game, or call a pay-per-minute service.
lhnz 10y ago
This is how I feel, too. I'm well able to be kind and reasonable to people and avoid making offensive jokes, but I am simply not okay with participating in an environment in which I can be ousted for having a different political opinion on another social network. I have spent over 20 years using the internet. If somebody wants to hurt me socially or economically, they could probably do so with a little detective work. I am only human, and like most people I've probably at some point done or said things which are ignorant, offensive or unsettling. Everything is a little political but I'm simply not the type of person that wishes to participate in a highly-politicised environment. I will leave that to the activists. I just want to write code and maybe help a few people out. This doesn't mean I'm against all codes of conduct, but I am against the way some quite noxious ones have been thrust on communities without a full consensus.
justin66 10y ago
> On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. You don't get out much.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  Ooh, insults. Great argument! But maybe I need to be more specific: I had never seen this in the communities I've taken part in - there's obviously some selection bias there though. But my point is a CoC isn't required for civil behaviour. It won't guarantee harmonious behaviour either (see the infamous opal thread), and makes censoring easier.
  - justin66 10y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. I agree that a Code of Conduct is neither necessary nor sufficient to ensure civil behavior in a group, although I think in some cases it might be a useful tool. Civility is an ideal that will not always exist, in any group. I do think we ought to do what we can to maintain civility. I can understand why you'd adopt the position you have if you view continued harassing behavior and hostile work environments as abstractions that do not take place in the world.

I think projects underestimate how off-putting Code of Conducts are. I won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. Giving people who are obsessed with political correctness a leg to stand on can be damaging to a community, and trying to placate such people via a CoC is a lost cause. On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. I don't think CoC deter such people anyway. So IMO there is simply no upside. Besides, any kind of potential drama is a no-go, I use my Github account for work. If I was younger, I'd probably start over again with a fresh github account that didn't have my real name attached to it. But not contributing seems like an easier solution.

tokenizerrr 10y ago

Yep. I won't even think about attempting to contribute to projects that have a CoC. Just look at https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 to see what will happen once you somehow upset one of the PC warriors.

orcdork 10y ago
You mean a whole bunch of people standing up to transphobia? because that's what i'm seeing.
- tokenizerrr 10y ago
  I see a whole bunch of people who have absolutely nothing to do with the Opal project lose their shit about something absolutely unrelated to the Opal project on the Opal project issue tracker. They are demanding for action to be taken which hurts the Opal project (removing one of its contributors). This is an absolute waste of time for anyone who is actually affiliated with the Opal project. But sure, let's call that "standing up to transphobia".
  - orcdork 10y ago
    I guess we both see what we want to see.
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      The guy was targeted because he was a man who they saw a chance to attack, in order to intimidate people with similar political views. CoC violations are called "cock violations" for a reason.
- prodigal_erik 10y ago
  Is that supposed to become the goal of the Opal project, censoring twitter? Because it doesn't have anything to do with their software. Kicking out a programmer because of his off-list opinions on transsexuality is like kicking out a movie actor because of his off-screen opinions on communism. People who can't agree to disagree are the problem.

StreakyCobra 10y ago

I'm in the same boat as you, maybe a little bit less categorical about whether to contribute to projects with CoC. I'm thinking twice before contributing to them, especially for the ones that use it as a showcase, but for sure if once someone start complaining because I made a joke, they won't see me again. For conference I'm even more careful, because of the IRL factor. And when conference use CoC as a showcase, it's a no go. Pycon is on my blacklist for instance. What I like the most is how they harass people based on a code that said people should not be harassed, because they «do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form». I'm pretty sure I will never be concerned by this because I'm really respectful, but I like jokes in general, about everything. I'm too afraid to become the target of SJWs that have a code that let them harass people because they are not happy with their opinions.

rebeccaskinner 10y ago

I think projects underestimate how off-putting Code of Conducts are. I won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. These days I try not to contribute to any project that doesn't have a CoC. The project I help maintain does, as do the communities I moderate. If someone can't create a PR without saying things that are racist, misogynist, etc. then frankly I don't want them in my community. If someone is going to be put off by the fact that mightn't be able to say something hateful if they decided they wanted to, then I'd rather not have that person in my community. Giving people who are obsessed with political correctness a leg to stand on can be damaging to a community, and trying to placating such people via a CoC is a lost cause. I think that's a very negative way of looking at a CoC. Where you see "people who are obsessed with political correctness", I see "people who are tired of being constantly shit on by the vocal jerks in online communities". It's not placating, it's simply valuing people's right to contribute and participate peacefully over other people's right to be jackasses. Sure, you can do that without a CoC, but the CoC is a good signal to people that the people who are moderating the community are on their side. On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. I don't think CoC deter such people anyway. So IMO there is simply no upside. I disagree with the assertion that CoCs don't deter people in a community; I have seen first-hand where having a code of conduct was a way of resolving something that was quickly getting out hand and was likely to have ended up with some great contributors leaving the project because they were being harassed by others. I wasn't going to convince the harassers that they were wrong about what they were saying, and I certainly wasn't going to convince the people being harassed that they should stick around in a community that was being hostile. Most people were either unaware of the threat, or else not directly affected and stayed quiet. The CoC was something of a final arbiter to put a stop to the harassment, and I had tried diligently to do so before putting on my admin hat or pulling out the CoC. I've seen many other situations where similar things have played out. Without CoCs people would have either been banned from the project, or others would have left, being able to put a stop to something has helped. Besides, any kind of potential drama is a no-go, I use my Github account for work. If I was younger, I'd probably start over again with a fresh github account that didn't have my real name attached to it. But not contributing seems like an easier solution. If you're neither a maintainer or community moderator, nor violating the CoC, then I don't see where the drama would come in. I have my real name attached to my github account, to the meetups I run, and the slack communities I moderate. I deal with CoC violations at times, and certainly my own harassment, but I'm not worried about "drama" effecting my reputation because I stand by my own behaviors and by my belief in the value of not letting people harass others and crate hostile toxic environments.

adekok 10y ago

> won't touch projects with a CoC, and when a project that I'm actively contributing to introduces a CoC, I stop contributing. Here's mine: http://freeradius.org/list/ http://freeradius.org/list/ --- The only permitted topic on the list is technical discussion related to FreeRADIUS. Off topic messages will result in a warning. Continued misbehavior will result in the person being unsubscribed from the list, and permanently banned. --- I sympathize with your position. When people started asking me for a code of conduct, I wrote the above. The trigger for me to write the above was a situation where someone complained on the list about "bad behavior", and asked for civility. When it was pointed out that the "bad behavior" was a technical answer to a technical question, they responded with cursing and insults. Cue... ban. Some people read simple technical answers go here and read this file as an emotional response of "go F yourself". They instead want answers to be "inclusive" to the point of smarmy pandering. My $0.02 is that if you want technical answers to a technical problem, you're welcome on a software forum. Otherwise, if you want online friends, play a MMO game, or call a pay-per-minute service.

lhnz 10y ago

This is how I feel, too. I'm well able to be kind and reasonable to people and avoid making offensive jokes, but I am simply not okay with participating in an environment in which I can be ousted for having a different political opinion on another social network. I have spent over 20 years using the internet. If somebody wants to hurt me socially or economically, they could probably do so with a little detective work. I am only human, and like most people I've probably at some point done or said things which are ignorant, offensive or unsettling. Everything is a little political but I'm simply not the type of person that wishes to participate in a highly-politicised environment. I will leave that to the activists. I just want to write code and maybe help a few people out. This doesn't mean I'm against all codes of conduct, but I am against the way some quite noxious ones have been thrust on communities without a full consensus.

justin66 10y ago

> On the flip side, I've never seen harassment tolerated even without a CoC. You don't get out much.

guitarbill 10y ago
Ooh, insults. Great argument! But maybe I need to be more specific: I had never seen this in the communities I've taken part in - there's obviously some selection bias there though. But my point is a CoC isn't required for civil behaviour. It won't guarantee harmonious behaviour either (see the infamous opal thread), and makes censoring easier.
- justin66 10y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. I agree that a Code of Conduct is neither necessary nor sufficient to ensure civil behavior in a group, although I think in some cases it might be a useful tool. Civility is an ideal that will not always exist, in any group. I do think we ought to do what we can to maintain civility. I can understand why you'd adopt the position you have if you view continued harassing behavior and hostile work environments as abstractions that do not take place in the world.