5 ms·

100% what you said. CoCs are absurd. Laws already cover all that. If they don't, fix them. US PC crap is what it is.

pg314 10y ago
> Laws already cover all that. No they don't. There is no law that requires you to be civil. Quite the opposite, the US has very strong free speech laws.
- rantanplan 10y ago
  Um yes, there are. If your country doesn't have them, you have a serious problem. EDIT: what's with the downvotes? Laws are supposed to guarantee a civil behavior so that we can have organized societies. If your laws don't cover that, fix them.
  - hyperpape 10y ago
    Perhaps it's a linguistic confusion? Civility means that I'm polite as I correct your mistake, and laws should not cover civility. What laws cover is harassment and threats. In some places there are also classes of hate speech that are prohibited by law. That's still much narrower than a general rule of civility. It's also a bad idea in my opinion, even though I'm a big ole SJW.
    - rantanplan 10y ago
      No confusion. See my answer here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667732
  - pg314 10y ago
    If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Which law? Which jurisdiction? How will you find out about my identity? How will you enforce any potential judgment if I'm in Somalia? How much time and money will it cost you to a) get a conviction, and b) try to enforce it? A lot of software projects have contributors from all over the world. It is just impractical to rely on the law to enforce civility.
    - rantanplan 10y ago
      > If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but if I can somehow prove it, you're in trouble and I can ask for restitution for the psychological effect it had on me. I bet it's the same for all civilized countries. CoCs have nothing to do with the rest of the things you're saying. They are not enforceable by law, they won't get you any kind of conviction. Best case scenario, you shun the person that didn't adhere by it. Which guess what? You can do that anyways, without any CoC in place. So really, I have no clue why you think that redundant things like CoC have any practical use. EDIT: instead of downvotes just explain where I'm wrong. Too many feelings here, very few logical arguments.
      - hyperpape 10y ago
        Aside from the minor detail that I ought not be legally prohibited from expressing my opinion that an idiot is an idiot, the even bigger issue is that this law is destined to protect powerful and corrupt people at the expense of their critics. There is a reason most dictators pass laws against insulting the monarchy. It has no hope of being fairly applied.
        rantanplan 10y ago
        You should add another minor detail, which is that I should not be legally prohibited from taking a walk, or walk my dog, without a crazy person following me around calling me an idiot. I would call that harassment/abuse. You can express your opinion on people in public office as much as you want. We weren't talking about Presidents and dictators though right? So maybe we should get back to the topic of how CoCs have no merit or practical use?
        hyperpape 10y ago
        Depending on some details, that would quite possibly count as harassment or stalking. If, on the other hand, it's on twitter, you use the block button, and other private matters. And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was "codes of conduct are bad, but legally prosecuting people for the same thing would be great!"
- maxlybbert 10y ago
  Laws do cover cases of extreme harassment. But they don't cover all incivility or microaggression (nor should they).
yokohummer7 10y ago
One of the reasons why many people come to HN is that it gives the moderation that is not covered by laws.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667447 and marked it off-topic.

pg314 10y ago

> Laws already cover all that. No they don't. There is no law that requires you to be civil. Quite the opposite, the US has very strong free speech laws.

rantanplan 10y ago
Um yes, there are. If your country doesn't have them, you have a serious problem. EDIT: what's with the downvotes? Laws are supposed to guarantee a civil behavior so that we can have organized societies. If your laws don't cover that, fix them.
- hyperpape 10y ago
  Perhaps it's a linguistic confusion? Civility means that I'm polite as I correct your mistake, and laws should not cover civility. What laws cover is harassment and threats. In some places there are also classes of hate speech that are prohibited by law. That's still much narrower than a general rule of civility. It's also a bad idea in my opinion, even though I'm a big ole SJW.
  - rantanplan 10y ago
    No confusion. See my answer here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667732
- pg314 10y ago
  If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Which law? Which jurisdiction? How will you find out about my identity? How will you enforce any potential judgment if I'm in Somalia? How much time and money will it cost you to a) get a conviction, and b) try to enforce it? A lot of software projects have contributors from all over the world. It is just impractical to rely on the law to enforce civility.
  - rantanplan 10y ago
    > If I call you an idiot, is that insult covered by the law? Yes. In Greece I can sue you over that. If that's worth my time or not is a different issue, but if I can somehow prove it, you're in trouble and I can ask for restitution for the psychological effect it had on me. I bet it's the same for all civilized countries. CoCs have nothing to do with the rest of the things you're saying. They are not enforceable by law, they won't get you any kind of conviction. Best case scenario, you shun the person that didn't adhere by it. Which guess what? You can do that anyways, without any CoC in place. So really, I have no clue why you think that redundant things like CoC have any practical use. EDIT: instead of downvotes just explain where I'm wrong. Too many feelings here, very few logical arguments.
    - hyperpape 10y ago
      Aside from the minor detail that I ought not be legally prohibited from expressing my opinion that an idiot is an idiot, the even bigger issue is that this law is destined to protect powerful and corrupt people at the expense of their critics. There is a reason most dictators pass laws against insulting the monarchy. It has no hope of being fairly applied.
      - rantanplan 10y ago
        You should add another minor detail, which is that I should not be legally prohibited from taking a walk, or walk my dog, without a crazy person following me around calling me an idiot. I would call that harassment/abuse. You can express your opinion on people in public office as much as you want. We weren't talking about Presidents and dictators though right? So maybe we should get back to the topic of how CoCs have no merit or practical use?
        hyperpape 10y ago
        Depending on some details, that would quite possibly count as harassment or stalking. If, on the other hand, it's on twitter, you use the block button, and other private matters. And we can't really get back to to the subject, because your whole idea was "codes of conduct are bad, but legally prosecuting people for the same thing would be great!"
maxlybbert 10y ago
Laws do cover cases of extreme harassment. But they don't cover all incivility or microaggression (nor should they).

yokohummer7 10y ago

One of the reasons why many people come to HN is that it gives the moderation that is not covered by laws.

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13667447 and marked it off-topic.