7 ms·

This smells a lot like anecdata. "Almost illiterate", in the age of the Web? I smell bullshit.* Something tells me that this is more a reflection of the rapidl

This smells a lot like anecdata. "Almost illiterate", in the age of the Web? I smell bullshit.* Something tells me that this is more a reflection of the rapidly changing state of our language -- and the mounting generation gap therein -- than some sort of universal dumbing down. The Boomers' parents had a similar reaction to all the groovy new lingo and loosening linguistic conventions. When they said "illiterate", they really meant "nearly unintelligible to me", or had a negative reaction to being called "man" instead of "sir". The definitions of literacy are changing. They're always changing. Without a quantitative measure to back up the claims, I'm inclined to think this is just reactionary garbage masquerading as fact. * I'd absolutely believe that critical thinking skills are on the decline, however. I blame the balkanization/insularity of internet communities and the industrial commodification of higher education. Teaching critical thinking requires individual attention that is increasingly scarce in the rush to get everybody "educated". Simultaneously, the web has allowed and encouraged people to choose increasingly niche communities in which to spend their time, reducing their contact with different or challenging ideas, cultures, and experiences.

Balgair 10y ago
Illiteracy is hard to really pin down, as other commenters say. I'll provide another anecdata point too: Wife is a public HS teacher. Many of her native English speaking kids are illiterate yet use their phones like they were air to breathe. This may seem contradictory, but it hinges on the definition of illiteracy. They can read a word, yes, even type them out with a speed unmatched by anyone over 25, but they do not type more than 7 words at a time (again anecdata). That 7 word number is about the same as your working memory limit, and there seems to be a causation there, though it may be correlation. The kids just cannot read a sentence of any real length, like many of the ones posted on HN. Imagine trying to read Aztec Hieroglyphs. You have to decipher each word from the drawings on a stone fresco and it is not easy work to do this. By the time you reach the end of a line of these strange drawings, you have forgotten what the first word was. That is how the kids see reading, they try to decipher the word, and then about halfway through the sentence they have forgotten the first word. The meaning of the article is totally lost in the exertion of translating the symbols. That is how many of her kids are illiterate in the age of the Web.
- monodeldiablo 10y ago
  Jesus. You just described how my son reads. He's 5. My condolences to your poor wife. I am prepared to accept that I'm wrong on this one. Perhaps I've been giving all the kids in my community too much credit, or maybe I live in a community of outliers. Whatever the case, their ability to converse with me in conceptual English is still impressive, and the schools here are shit.
  - Balgair 10y ago
    Sounds like a good place then! Her kids can talk just fine, well sort of, there are a lot of SpEd kids and non-English speakers in those 40 kid classes. But the 'median' kids talk without issues. It's mostly limited to reading and writing. As for maths? Fuggeddaboutit. The mean SAT score was a 325 in math, and that's when you take out the kids that started fights during the SAT.
- vorotato 10y ago
  Yeah "Miller's number" the 7(+-2) ___ limit, is a myth.
  - Balgair 10y ago
    Source? I haven't heard this yet. Is it like 5 then?
fergie 10y ago
It's just one of those Telegraph/Times/Daily Mail articles that are specifically engineered to elicit an anger boner in Middle England.
- monodeldiablo 10y ago
  "Anger boner". My vocabulary's latest addition. Ta!
gambiting 10y ago
total anecdote In my MSc in Computer Science in the UK we had 9 international(Chinese) students. 8 of them dropped out after 3 months - they could barely speak English, they definitely could not write in English, and the reason why they dropped out was because for 3 months they used our lab as a place to play League of Legends, and nothing else. To be accepted, they all must have already obtained a BSc degree in Computer Science or related field from somewhere, and have at least 7 on an IELTS exam to demonstrate their English proficiency. I honestly don't see how either one was possible. That has nothing to do with being called a man instead of a sir. They literally couldn't speak the language of the course they got accepted into. I am tempted to say that it's the fault of the university for accepting them in the first place, but in a way, their hands are tied in how much vetting they can do, and things like IELTS are meant to be completely objective.
- monodeldiablo 10y ago
  Curiously, I had the same experience with Chinese MSc/PhD students. My graduate-level CS discussion sections and labs skewed heavily Chinese, American, and Indian. The Indians seemed most prepared, the Americans right behind, and the Chinese were way behind. Group readings of recent research papers were an exercise in torture. Poor comprehension, near zero communication skill, and a total inability to find flaws/ask questions. None (that I know of) made it out of the program. I have no clue how they ever got in the door, as this was a international top 100 program. I actually finished the semester by skipping the discussion section altogether, doing the readings in my own time, and going straight to the professor's office hours with my notes and questions. He understood completely. I think he actuall envied me my freedom. On the flip side, my partner (whom I met in college) was a refugee with poor English her freshman year. Yet she graduated -- with honors -- in a shade over three years, with two degrees in the soft sciences and better written and spoken English than myself. Then she got a degree in a hard science. Then a masters. And that's the problem with anecdotes. I could choose either to be representative of my experience, but I'd be wrong either way. Without some quantitative data, we really can't know if this is a real phenomenon or not.
- emj 10y ago
  But is it a problem? Those 2 out 10 kids who continued in our CS class were marvelous. Meeting highly motivated kids from abroad was a boon for me, but when you can't communicated with them it gets really hard, and it's easy to think they are stupid or illiterate. I guess this is even worse over here since many classes are not available in english.
teknologist 10y ago
It's reasonable to assume that international students browse the web in their own language and not just in English.
- monodeldiablo 10y ago
  Sure, but I think it's too easy to underestimate the omnipresence of English on the Web. Perhaps students originating from populous, insulated countries might be able to avoid it, but certainly not most international students. I live in Croatia and, even here, most of the media -- online and off -- is overwhelmingly English. The younger generation is almost entirely bilingual as a direct result. That's just my perception, though. I have no data to back any of this up, so take it with a grain of salt.
  - monsieurbanana 10y ago
    My own feeling, also without data to back it up besides my own experience (I'm french), is that your claim is absolutely false. They know basic english (because they have english class at school and indeed because of internet), there are more and more "almost bilingual" people, but to say that most of them are proficient (not even almost bilingual, just advanced comprehension) in english is absurd. At least in France and the asian countries I've visited. Some european countries like Iceland or Norway speak much better english. but I doubt it's because of the internet. I think they just have a better education system in certain areas.
buro9 10y ago
More anecdata for you then. My wife is a lecturer in an English department at a Russell Group university, and whilst some percentage of her students are extremely critical she has had a very hard time getting them to have a basic comprehension of critical English. By this I mean, the students cannot define the words that they use, and do not understand the language that they consume and create. Their vocabulary appears to be smaller, and the phrasing is reflective of people who are reading fewer long-reads, fewer critical pieces and papers. She spends too much of her own allocated teaching time raising the standard such that she is able to work with them on more complex analytical thought towards the end of the degree. The chances that the students may read Adorno in their spare time approaches zero, and so the chances of them comprehending Deleuze does not exist. If that sounds lofty, bear in mind that the students that she has comprise a decent proportion of foreign students who cannot even pass basic English comprehension tests, and yet are admitted because the fees for them are so high that the university will accept them no matter what.
DanBC 10y ago
There are different definitions for "illiterate". If you use the more restrictive "age 15 and over has completed five or more years of schooling" the UK has a literacy rate of 99%. That's not a useful definition, in part because the UK has laws forcing children into education until age 18, and partly because it tells you nothing about outcomes. http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/literacy.html http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/literacy.html If you use other definitions, such as that for "funtionally illiterate" you start finding many more people that meet the definition. http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy/illiterate_adults_in_england http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy/illiterate_ad... > More common is the use of the term "functionally literate". Around 16 per cent, or 5.2 million adults in England, can be described as "functionally illiterate". They would not pass an English GCSE and have literacy levels at or below those expected of an 11-year-old. They can understand short straightforward texts on familiar topics accurately and independently, and obtain information from everyday sources, but reading information from unfamiliar sources, or on unfamiliar topics, could cause problems > Many areas of employment would not be open to them with this level of literacy and they may also struggle to support their children with reading and homework, or perform other everyday tasks. That's not "at the level expected of a smart 11 year old", but the average 11 year old.

Balgair 10y ago

Illiteracy is hard to really pin down, as other commenters say. I'll provide another anecdata point too: Wife is a public HS teacher. Many of her native English speaking kids are illiterate yet use their phones like they were air to breathe. This may seem contradictory, but it hinges on the definition of illiteracy. They can read a word, yes, even type them out with a speed unmatched by anyone over 25, but they do not type more than 7 words at a time (again anecdata). That 7 word number is about the same as your working memory limit, and there seems to be a causation there, though it may be correlation. The kids just cannot read a sentence of any real length, like many of the ones posted on HN. Imagine trying to read Aztec Hieroglyphs. You have to decipher each word from the drawings on a stone fresco and it is not easy work to do this. By the time you reach the end of a line of these strange drawings, you have forgotten what the first word was. That is how the kids see reading, they try to decipher the word, and then about halfway through the sentence they have forgotten the first word. The meaning of the article is totally lost in the exertion of translating the symbols. That is how many of her kids are illiterate in the age of the Web.

monodeldiablo 10y ago
Jesus. You just described how my son reads. He's 5. My condolences to your poor wife. I am prepared to accept that I'm wrong on this one. Perhaps I've been giving all the kids in my community too much credit, or maybe I live in a community of outliers. Whatever the case, their ability to converse with me in conceptual English is still impressive, and the schools here are shit.
- Balgair 10y ago
  Sounds like a good place then! Her kids can talk just fine, well sort of, there are a lot of SpEd kids and non-English speakers in those 40 kid classes. But the 'median' kids talk without issues. It's mostly limited to reading and writing. As for maths? Fuggeddaboutit. The mean SAT score was a 325 in math, and that's when you take out the kids that started fights during the SAT.
vorotato 10y ago
Yeah "Miller's number" the 7(+-2) ___ limit, is a myth.
- Balgair 10y ago
  Source? I haven't heard this yet. Is it like 5 then?

fergie 10y ago

It's just one of those Telegraph/Times/Daily Mail articles that are specifically engineered to elicit an anger boner in Middle England.

monodeldiablo 10y ago
"Anger boner". My vocabulary's latest addition. Ta!

gambiting 10y ago

total anecdote In my MSc in Computer Science in the UK we had 9 international(Chinese) students. 8 of them dropped out after 3 months - they could barely speak English, they definitely could not write in English, and the reason why they dropped out was because for 3 months they used our lab as a place to play League of Legends, and nothing else. To be accepted, they all must have already obtained a BSc degree in Computer Science or related field from somewhere, and have at least 7 on an IELTS exam to demonstrate their English proficiency. I honestly don't see how either one was possible. That has nothing to do with being called a man instead of a sir. They literally couldn't speak the language of the course they got accepted into. I am tempted to say that it's the fault of the university for accepting them in the first place, but in a way, their hands are tied in how much vetting they can do, and things like IELTS are meant to be completely objective.

monodeldiablo 10y ago
Curiously, I had the same experience with Chinese MSc/PhD students. My graduate-level CS discussion sections and labs skewed heavily Chinese, American, and Indian. The Indians seemed most prepared, the Americans right behind, and the Chinese were way behind. Group readings of recent research papers were an exercise in torture. Poor comprehension, near zero communication skill, and a total inability to find flaws/ask questions. None (that I know of) made it out of the program. I have no clue how they ever got in the door, as this was a international top 100 program. I actually finished the semester by skipping the discussion section altogether, doing the readings in my own time, and going straight to the professor's office hours with my notes and questions. He understood completely. I think he actuall envied me my freedom. On the flip side, my partner (whom I met in college) was a refugee with poor English her freshman year. Yet she graduated -- with honors -- in a shade over three years, with two degrees in the soft sciences and better written and spoken English than myself. Then she got a degree in a hard science. Then a masters. And that's the problem with anecdotes. I could choose either to be representative of my experience, but I'd be wrong either way. Without some quantitative data, we really can't know if this is a real phenomenon or not.
emj 10y ago
But is it a problem? Those 2 out 10 kids who continued in our CS class were marvelous. Meeting highly motivated kids from abroad was a boon for me, but when you can't communicated with them it gets really hard, and it's easy to think they are stupid or illiterate. I guess this is even worse over here since many classes are not available in english.

teknologist 10y ago

It's reasonable to assume that international students browse the web in their own language and not just in English.

monodeldiablo 10y ago
Sure, but I think it's too easy to underestimate the omnipresence of English on the Web. Perhaps students originating from populous, insulated countries might be able to avoid it, but certainly not most international students. I live in Croatia and, even here, most of the media -- online and off -- is overwhelmingly English. The younger generation is almost entirely bilingual as a direct result. That's just my perception, though. I have no data to back any of this up, so take it with a grain of salt.
- monsieurbanana 10y ago
  My own feeling, also without data to back it up besides my own experience (I'm french), is that your claim is absolutely false. They know basic english (because they have english class at school and indeed because of internet), there are more and more "almost bilingual" people, but to say that most of them are proficient (not even almost bilingual, just advanced comprehension) in english is absurd. At least in France and the asian countries I've visited. Some european countries like Iceland or Norway speak much better english. but I doubt it's because of the internet. I think they just have a better education system in certain areas.

buro9 10y ago

More anecdata for you then. My wife is a lecturer in an English department at a Russell Group university, and whilst some percentage of her students are extremely critical she has had a very hard time getting them to have a basic comprehension of critical English. By this I mean, the students cannot define the words that they use, and do not understand the language that they consume and create. Their vocabulary appears to be smaller, and the phrasing is reflective of people who are reading fewer long-reads, fewer critical pieces and papers. She spends too much of her own allocated teaching time raising the standard such that she is able to work with them on more complex analytical thought towards the end of the degree. The chances that the students may read Adorno in their spare time approaches zero, and so the chances of them comprehending Deleuze does not exist. If that sounds lofty, bear in mind that the students that she has comprise a decent proportion of foreign students who cannot even pass basic English comprehension tests, and yet are admitted because the fees for them are so high that the university will accept them no matter what.

DanBC 10y ago

There are different definitions for "illiterate". If you use the more restrictive "age 15 and over has completed five or more years of schooling" the UK has a literacy rate of 99%. That's not a useful definition, in part because the UK has laws forcing children into education until age 18, and partly because it tells you nothing about outcomes. http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/literacy.html http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/literacy.html If you use other definitions, such as that for "funtionally illiterate" you start finding many more people that meet the definition. http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy/illiterate_adults_in_england http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy/illiterate_ad... > More common is the use of the term "functionally literate". Around 16 per cent, or 5.2 million adults in England, can be described as "functionally illiterate". They would not pass an English GCSE and have literacy levels at or below those expected of an 11-year-old. They can understand short straightforward texts on familiar topics accurately and independently, and obtain information from everyday sources, but reading information from unfamiliar sources, or on unfamiliar topics, could cause problems > Many areas of employment would not be open to them with this level of literacy and they may also struggle to support their children with reading and homework, or perform other everyday tasks. That's not "at the level expected of a smart 11 year old", but the average 11 year old.