6 ms·

Windows 10 isn't too bad OS wise either though. I don't know, maybe I'm just too old now because I'm already tired typing about it. I still scratch my head wh

by ftlio 10y ago

Windows 10 isn't too bad OS wise either though. I don't know, maybe I'm just too old now because I'm already tired typing about it. I still scratch my head when I see people developing non Windows apps on Windows. And I run Nix on everything. But I'd accept 'I like Windows more even if I could run my expensive industry specific software on Linux' without feeling the need to explain why they're wrong.

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
but the proprietary nature of Windows 10 is the problem. Cost. Spyware. Security. ...
- mephistopheles 10y ago
  I don't like the way Microsoft has lately begun treating both their devs and customers, but nevertheless they are a corporation - they have to someway make a profit - a business survives by adapting to their users and telemetry ("spyware") is data; data on which they (should) adapt to their user needs.
  - junk_disposal 10y ago
    >data on which they (should) adapt to their user needs. Then make it optional. Or at least opt-out. Or say that if you don't enable telemetry, your opinion won't count. Or at least tell you what they're getting and how.
  - ben0x539 10y ago
    The fact that you can spell out the motivation of someone's shitty behavior doesn't elevate it above criticism!
- pjmlp 10y ago
  > Spyware. Security. ... I hope you don't use web apps, ChromeOS or Android then.
  - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
    For web, I always have Privacy Badger + Ublock + ScriptSafe (which I selectively disable). For Android, Instead of StockRoms + GooglePlay I use Lineage + F-Droid (only open source apps). And on my ChromeOS labtop, I installed Parabola Linux (free-software-only version of Arch Linux).
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Regarding web, that is only partial security, as you cannot avoid everything that gets stored on the application servers.
    - SippinLean 10y ago
      How is that philosophically different than using Windows with Spybot Anti-beacon (or similar telemetry-blocker)? You're critical of Windows for collecting data, but use other software that collects similar data, saying "that's fine I have 3rd-party privacy tools". These same tools have existed for Win10 since week 1.
      - 0x6c6f6c 10y ago
        > How is that philosophically different than using Windows He has entirely FOSS stacks for his devices? Quite literally no proprietary code wherever possible? They're not "3rd-party privacy tools" he's making a point of, outside of a browser which isn't what the complaint is about on Windows, since that is outside the bounds of OS-specific complaints, but he mentioned it nonetheless since you asked about it.
_m7bj 10y ago
>Windows 10 isn't too bad OS wise either though. On a fundamental technical level, windows 10 is a pretty finely tuned os. On any other benchmark you might choose (privacy, invasiveness and advertising, user control, user experience, active user deception) windows has been going downhill for years.
leadingthenet 10y ago
You're missing the point about criticism of Windows 10. Almost nobody could claim that it's a bad OS from a technical standpoint, though there are certainly significant improvements to be made. The real issue is lack of any semblance of privacy, user unfriendliness, and frankly the closed-down nature of it is never going to do it any favours. In my view, apart from gaming, it has nothing going for it.
- fauigerzigerk 10y ago
  >In my view, apart from gaming, it has nothing going for it. What Windows has going for it is that it supports a lot of different desktop/laptop hardware very well. macOS doesn't support a lot of hardware. Linux supports a lot of hardware but much of it not very well. If I list my desired specs for a laptop or desktop and then go ahead and buy the one that best meets my criteria, chances are pretty high that Windows will run best on it. I have been a Mac user for many years. I'm using a Mac mini right now. But if I had to replace it today I wouldn't know what to replace it with.
  - silky 10y ago
    > What Windows has going for it is that it supports a lot of different desktop/laptop hardware very well. I don't think that's the case. It's not that Windows itself supports more hardware, but the fact that drivers for said hardware are built only for Windows. It could even be seen as a vicious cicle: 1) HW manufacturers create drivers for Windows because It's more popular; 2) Users use Windows because "It Just Works (TM)" and so userbase grows; 3) goto 1 > Linux supports a lot of hardware but much of it not very well. Hence I think Linux supports more HW but driver support isn't as good. I get what you're saying though.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      A lot of the crap in Linux hardware support comes borked hardware that under Windows is papered over by the OEM drivers. Damn it, Foxconn managed to ship a desktop motherboard that would produce junk ACPI data unless the OS identified itself as Windows on boot.
yokohummer7 10y ago
When they say the privacy issues of Windows I see a double standard. Android is, to my mind, equally "invasive" as Windows, if not more. Except the fact that Android's source code is open, they are pretty much same regarding end user experience. Yet every time Windows 10 is brought up people say privacy. Yeah, I understand that Windows wasn't like this, so people can get upset about the recent changes Microsoft is pushing onto. On the other hand Android has been like that from the beginning, so there might not be much expectation. But still I don't care Windows-as-a-service because nowadays pretty much every software I use is provided like that. It's just that the OS becamse not an exception.
- vamur 10y ago
  It isn't, as you can disable or replace parts of Android you don't like. With Windows you are stuck with whatever Microsoft decides.
  - squarefoot 10y ago
    The best place to put spyware into is closed source unauditable software. On Windows the entire system and most well known applications are closed source, therefore not trustworthy, but on Android things are not that different: Android makes heavy use of closed source device drivers and so far any attempt to get a completely open system while keeping all the underlying iron useable has failed because most device manufacturers keep their hardware undocumented, save for Google and a few big players under NDA. The point is that security is an OR: a chain whose strength depend on the weakest link; if one closed blob can contain a keylogger, having just one in an otherwise 100% open phone still makes the phone 100% potentially not secure.
    - vamur 10y ago
      By your definition, Linux is also insecure since it depends on closed source BIOS and closed source device firmwares, as well as closed source hardware. Security is a process not a if/else choice, and Android is more secure than Windows because it is open source and you can replace Google parts. Good luck doing that on Windows.
kofejnik 10y ago
Some time ago, I had a desktop PC with a mechanical HDD (capacity reasons), and I made a mistake of installing W10 on it. Very quickly I noticed that even on a fresh install, HDD was literally never idle, and that's after all updates. There's always some more crap MS wants to push out, or something wants to update, or reindex, and so on and on. Seriously, it interfered with my sleep in another room. Windows 10, never again.
- 72deluxe 10y ago
  Did you ever run a profile to see what was going on? Or run ProcessMonitor to see what was using the disk etc.? It could be the indexing service for files. There is the NTFS MFT which is used by tools such as Everything by "void tools", but Windows also has its own Windows Search (WSearch) service which indexes files and contents. I believe this is similar to the Indexing Service found on Windows XP that would give you hopeless results (duplicates between its database and the actual file system). This is meant to make Cortana be able to give you helpful results when you search for things like files locally. I have found it to be slow to type something into the Start menu (just type), particularly compared to the results from Everything (mentioned above) or Apple's Spotlight. It is very odd because Microsoft has its own SQL Server division (and SQLite is free if they want to use that!) as well as embedded SQL Server for file-based database systems yet their start menu search is horribly slow so as to be useless (for me at least). I recommend buying Windows Internals 6 volumes 1 & 2 to understand what is going on, at least under Windows 7. There are not versions released for Windows 10 yet (and will there ever be? It's a constantly moving target).
  - kofejnik 10y ago
    Yes, spent some time with Perfmon, as expected, it was due to various system components constantly finding some reason to update/install something I have no use for. Moving Chrome profile to a RAM disk helped somewhat, as did turning off some icon update stupidity or something like that in hidden Chrome settings. But as you mentioned, if even the Start menu is lagging, I have no patience and no desire to investigate further, this is it. So instead of buying some utilities to make windows less crappy, I've finally had enough and installed Ubuntu on that last PC. Just to think about it, I was an MCSE+I and MCDBA some time ago, now I only boot windows for games.

by ftlio 10y ago

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

but the proprietary nature of Windows 10 is the problem. Cost. Spyware. Security. ...

mephistopheles 10y ago
I don't like the way Microsoft has lately begun treating both their devs and customers, but nevertheless they are a corporation - they have to someway make a profit - a business survives by adapting to their users and telemetry ("spyware") is data; data on which they (should) adapt to their user needs.
- junk_disposal 10y ago
  >data on which they (should) adapt to their user needs. Then make it optional. Or at least opt-out. Or say that if you don't enable telemetry, your opinion won't count. Or at least tell you what they're getting and how.
- ben0x539 10y ago
  The fact that you can spell out the motivation of someone's shitty behavior doesn't elevate it above criticism!
pjmlp 10y ago
> Spyware. Security. ... I hope you don't use web apps, ChromeOS or Android then.
- em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
  For web, I always have Privacy Badger + Ublock + ScriptSafe (which I selectively disable). For Android, Instead of StockRoms + GooglePlay I use Lineage + F-Droid (only open source apps). And on my ChromeOS labtop, I installed Parabola Linux (free-software-only version of Arch Linux).
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Regarding web, that is only partial security, as you cannot avoid everything that gets stored on the application servers.
  - SippinLean 10y ago
    How is that philosophically different than using Windows with Spybot Anti-beacon (or similar telemetry-blocker)? You're critical of Windows for collecting data, but use other software that collects similar data, saying "that's fine I have 3rd-party privacy tools". These same tools have existed for Win10 since week 1.
    - 0x6c6f6c 10y ago
      > How is that philosophically different than using Windows He has entirely FOSS stacks for his devices? Quite literally no proprietary code wherever possible? They're not "3rd-party privacy tools" he's making a point of, outside of a browser which isn't what the complaint is about on Windows, since that is outside the bounds of OS-specific complaints, but he mentioned it nonetheless since you asked about it.

_m7bj 10y ago

>Windows 10 isn't too bad OS wise either though. On a fundamental technical level, windows 10 is a pretty finely tuned os. On any other benchmark you might choose (privacy, invasiveness and advertising, user control, user experience, active user deception) windows has been going downhill for years.

leadingthenet 10y ago

You're missing the point about criticism of Windows 10. Almost nobody could claim that it's a bad OS from a technical standpoint, though there are certainly significant improvements to be made. The real issue is lack of any semblance of privacy, user unfriendliness, and frankly the closed-down nature of it is never going to do it any favours. In my view, apart from gaming, it has nothing going for it.

fauigerzigerk 10y ago
>In my view, apart from gaming, it has nothing going for it. What Windows has going for it is that it supports a lot of different desktop/laptop hardware very well. macOS doesn't support a lot of hardware. Linux supports a lot of hardware but much of it not very well. If I list my desired specs for a laptop or desktop and then go ahead and buy the one that best meets my criteria, chances are pretty high that Windows will run best on it. I have been a Mac user for many years. I'm using a Mac mini right now. But if I had to replace it today I wouldn't know what to replace it with.
- silky 10y ago
  > What Windows has going for it is that it supports a lot of different desktop/laptop hardware very well. I don't think that's the case. It's not that Windows itself supports more hardware, but the fact that drivers for said hardware are built only for Windows. It could even be seen as a vicious cicle: 1) HW manufacturers create drivers for Windows because It's more popular; 2) Users use Windows because "It Just Works (TM)" and so userbase grows; 3) goto 1 > Linux supports a lot of hardware but much of it not very well. Hence I think Linux supports more HW but driver support isn't as good. I get what you're saying though.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    A lot of the crap in Linux hardware support comes borked hardware that under Windows is papered over by the OEM drivers. Damn it, Foxconn managed to ship a desktop motherboard that would produce junk ACPI data unless the OS identified itself as Windows on boot.

yokohummer7 10y ago

When they say the privacy issues of Windows I see a double standard. Android is, to my mind, equally "invasive" as Windows, if not more. Except the fact that Android's source code is open, they are pretty much same regarding end user experience. Yet every time Windows 10 is brought up people say privacy. Yeah, I understand that Windows wasn't like this, so people can get upset about the recent changes Microsoft is pushing onto. On the other hand Android has been like that from the beginning, so there might not be much expectation. But still I don't care Windows-as-a-service because nowadays pretty much every software I use is provided like that. It's just that the OS becamse not an exception.

vamur 10y ago
It isn't, as you can disable or replace parts of Android you don't like. With Windows you are stuck with whatever Microsoft decides.
- squarefoot 10y ago
  The best place to put spyware into is closed source unauditable software. On Windows the entire system and most well known applications are closed source, therefore not trustworthy, but on Android things are not that different: Android makes heavy use of closed source device drivers and so far any attempt to get a completely open system while keeping all the underlying iron useable has failed because most device manufacturers keep their hardware undocumented, save for Google and a few big players under NDA. The point is that security is an OR: a chain whose strength depend on the weakest link; if one closed blob can contain a keylogger, having just one in an otherwise 100% open phone still makes the phone 100% potentially not secure.
  - vamur 10y ago
    By your definition, Linux is also insecure since it depends on closed source BIOS and closed source device firmwares, as well as closed source hardware. Security is a process not a if/else choice, and Android is more secure than Windows because it is open source and you can replace Google parts. Good luck doing that on Windows.

kofejnik 10y ago

Some time ago, I had a desktop PC with a mechanical HDD (capacity reasons), and I made a mistake of installing W10 on it. Very quickly I noticed that even on a fresh install, HDD was literally never idle, and that's after all updates. There's always some more crap MS wants to push out, or something wants to update, or reindex, and so on and on. Seriously, it interfered with my sleep in another room. Windows 10, never again.

72deluxe 10y ago
Did you ever run a profile to see what was going on? Or run ProcessMonitor to see what was using the disk etc.? It could be the indexing service for files. There is the NTFS MFT which is used by tools such as Everything by "void tools", but Windows also has its own Windows Search (WSearch) service which indexes files and contents. I believe this is similar to the Indexing Service found on Windows XP that would give you hopeless results (duplicates between its database and the actual file system). This is meant to make Cortana be able to give you helpful results when you search for things like files locally. I have found it to be slow to type something into the Start menu (just type), particularly compared to the results from Everything (mentioned above) or Apple's Spotlight. It is very odd because Microsoft has its own SQL Server division (and SQLite is free if they want to use that!) as well as embedded SQL Server for file-based database systems yet their start menu search is horribly slow so as to be useless (for me at least). I recommend buying Windows Internals 6 volumes 1 & 2 to understand what is going on, at least under Windows 7. There are not versions released for Windows 10 yet (and will there ever be? It's a constantly moving target).
- kofejnik 10y ago
  Yes, spent some time with Perfmon, as expected, it was due to various system components constantly finding some reason to update/install something I have no use for. Moving Chrome profile to a RAM disk helped somewhat, as did turning off some icon update stupidity or something like that in hidden Chrome settings. But as you mentioned, if even the Start menu is lagging, I have no patience and no desire to investigate further, this is it. So instead of buying some utilities to make windows less crappy, I've finally had enough and installed Ubuntu on that last PC. Just to think about it, I was an MCSE+I and MCDBA some time ago, now I only boot windows for games.