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Americans are also foolishly suckered into believing they need a new car every few years. It's not a phone. A car should last 10 years and there is absolutely n

Americans are also foolishly suckered into believing they need a new car every few years. It's not a phone. A car should last 10 years and there is absolutely no reason to buy new unless you have money to burn. My truck is going on 10 years old (bought used) and has low mileage < 100k. Paid a fraction of the cost of a new one (roughly 35% of the sticker price when it was 5 years old).

searchfaster 10y ago
Same applies to a 600$ service every 3 years or 30K miles. Just to change oil, filters, flush refill all fluids and verify everything is alright. Easily doable under 75$ within an hour or two. My Sedan has been running fine with no dealer service or oil change for the past 12 years, over 120K miles.
- camhenlin 10y ago
  Neglecting on maintenance isn't great advice if people are looking for ways to get more out of their vehicles. Nearly every car around will need a lot more than fluids and filters every 120k miles.
  - Maakuth 10y ago
    In many if not most vehicles, not replacing belts after their specified age is risking serious damage to the engine. Still I agree that the official branded service is often a ripoff.
    - diebir 10y ago
      Not "belts" but timing belt. Check if your car has interference or non-interference engine. The replacement interval is often at 120K miles, after which it becomes a gamble, but may last 200K.
  - anticodon 10y ago
    I do service on my bike and car myself. It's not as difficult as most people think. Not only it's cheaper but also more reliable. I've seen too many times how workers at the dealer forget to tighten some nut, or forget to put some cover back after maintenance, or change the brake pads but don't change or grease other brake parts, etc. They are not interested in doing quality work.
    - Inconel 10y ago
      I had two experiences that convinced me to start changing my own fluids and doing basic maintenance. One time I took my Honda to a dealer for an oil change and they over tightened the oil pan plug to the point that the threads stripped off. Of course I only discovered this after a period of some time so I had no recourse. I had to pay for a new oil pan and installation. After that I vowed not to take my car to the dealer so I took it to a well reviewed independent shop. On the way home after a fluid change and radiator flush my engine temp shot up and I discovered they hadn't installed a radiator cap. Since then I've found a really good local mechanic, but being that he's in demand, his prices are high and getting an appointment on my day off can be a problem. I still take my car to him at least once a year for service and to have him look things over but other than that I do my own basic service. I usually schedule a day with a few friends and we work on our cars together. It makes things more social and less of a chore.
  - diebir 10y ago
    The less maintenance a modern car gets, the better. That is, aside from the oil changes and things like brakes that wear out can be easily done DIY. In fact, once you start to service your car, that's where the problems start. We are not paying enough for mechanics to pay attention or care. The cars are not always designed for serviceability, some things can simply never be put back together the way they were done in the factory. There are no shops, official or not, that will use the recommended by vendor procedures or swap out all the required parts when doing some work. Modern Japanese cars seem to last quite fine with zero service (again beside oil changes, brakes, fluids and such) for 200K+ miles/15+ years, after which they are worth so little and work costs so much that donating to NPR is the only practical option.
    - BuckRogers 10y ago
      You are definitely on the money. I hate taking my cars in for any work, there's always a screw missing or something broken that wasn't before. IF you work on it yourself later, you'll notice, which I do. No matter where you go. I prefer to just do it myself but buying the new tools involved and (to a lesser extent) the time involved is prohibitive. I do change things that aren't difficult such as replacing a turn signal switch in the steering column. But I think the premium for a Toyota or Honda is definitely worth it- paying to reduce probability of having someone wrench on your vehicle, leaving it with a new problem for each one it resolved. Then just hope no one runs into you resulting in the same issue- wishful thinking in an era where everyone is looking down at a phone (which should result in reckless driving charges and jail time). I suppose it's like expecting even halfway decent QA on software that you purchase. At every place I've worked there is not even a dedicated SQL DBA let alone a legitimate QA effort or team.
      - sokoloff 10y ago
        Small thread diversion: I do all my own maintenance (excluding tire replacement). This is one of the things I loved about maintaining my diesel Mercedes. It was clear that thought and great care was put into fastener choice. (Most) Anything that needed to be removed for service was a permanent fastener. No push-through "Christmas tree" fasteners on parts that needed removing for service; it was a threaded insert and a screw. Where the parts needed a plastic fitting, it was a permanent/reusable expanding plastic fastener, not a push-in fitting. Contrast that with the Honda that needed less service, but so many jobs involved doing the job and then also replacing the broken one-time or few-time use plastic fasteners (after trying to find and buy it). Similar with my older Jeeps and VWs. MB seemed to design their car to be serviced for 500K km. Others seem to design it to be cheap and fast to assemble and pass the "initial quality survey" and maybe the length of the warranty period without too many defects.
perryh2 10y ago
I love browsing cars for sale online that are 2-3 years old with <30K miles. They're the best value and like you said the price is just 2/3 of the cost new at the time. People need to realize that a car (even Ferraris) loses anywhere between 35-50% within 3-4 years. Good used cars dealerships with online presence move a TON of inventory everyday. Carsense.com uses the online checkout system from drivemotors.com (I used to work here) and the prices they display on their websites are wild. You can literally buy a car from them without haggling.
- phamilton 10y ago
  I've heard this (loss of 35-50% within 3-4 years) and it's not really true. (Or at least, depends on the vehicle.) A 2017 Honda Accord goes for $20k new. A 2014 of the same model with 45k miles goes for $16k (KBB). A 2011 of the same model with 90k miles goes for $10k (KBB). Basically, the first 3 years and 45k miles it depreciates $4000. The second 3 years and 45k it loses $6000 more in value. Arguably it's cheaper to buy new and sell after 3 years than to buy 3 years old and sell after 3 years. The years 7-9 are when the car stops losing value so quickly. Worth $6700 in year 9 and 135k miles. The last 3 years and 45k miles only depreciate $3300.
  - imperialdrive 10y ago
    It's one thing for new cars that are 20K, but for example, my last car was a Japanese built 2003 Toyota Avalon XLS loaded, 47K new plus taxes, purchased certified in N. Hollywood for 17.5K out-the-door in 2008 with a warranty. Only oil changes and a couple batteries, and I still keep it around after 189K miles! It's not worth much for resale now, but it still drives likes new... go used, take care of it, spend money on more exciting things!
  - perryh2 10y ago
    The Honda Accord actually holds value pretty well. It's also pretty cheap as a brand new car, so as you can imagine, it won't depreciate as much as other cars. My figures hold true for most other cars though.
chrisper 10y ago
Unless, of course, people want newer engines that are more efficient, want newest technology (carplay / android auto), and want newest safety equipment. At this point it's maybe not so much that they need one, but that they want one. I for sure don't want to keep cars forever. Maybe I misread your comment, but keeping a car for 10 years may not be for everyone.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Unless, of course, people want newer engines that are more efficient, want newest technology (carplay / android auto), and want newest safety equipment. Those changes, generation to generation (2-3 years) will be marginal if even present anyway, except on rare cases. And even them are more like "want" than need, as you say. >Maybe I misread your comment, but keeping a car for 10 years may not be for everyone. Might not be to the mindset of everyone, but that's what the parent addresses.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    Yes, it won't make a difference between 2-3 years, but it would make a difference if you kept a car for 10 years.
- nickff 10y ago
  I instinctively agree with you, but the difference between need and want is a tough one to draw these days. I err on the side of believing that 'need' is a narrow category, comprising of only the things which are necessary for the short-term survival of healthy humans, but others have a broader understanding of the term.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    Yes. People who work 3 jobs should not worry about getting a new car for the reasons I mentioned above. Maybe my arguments work better for (upper?) middle-class.
- thatcat 10y ago
  >newer more efficient engines Losing a bunch of money as depreciation for a marginally more efficient car doesn't really make accounting sense. >android auto /carplay These are accessories that car manufactures generally do a worse job of producing than 3rd parties.
viraptor 10y ago
I get the idea of what you're saying, but there are absolutely reasons to buy a new-ish car: safety. Rear facing camera, better structure, abs, traction control, automatic emergency breaking, etc. have all either been added or improved not that long ago. It's not as massive difference as between 1950's and 2000, but there's still a considerable improvement. It doesn't mean you need a new one straight from the dealer of course. Buying something slightly used will save you lots of money.
- tdkl 10y ago
  He said 10 years ago, not 30.
  - viraptor 10y ago
    Unless you're after the more expensive models, a lot of security features were not available as a standard in cars from ~2007. You can still easily find cars without parking sensors or cameras today.
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      There is parking assistance and then there are major safety features like ABS and better structures. Is a 2007 civic or accord missing those things?
      - viraptor 10y ago
        You say parking assistance. I say a warning system for not backing into small people and obstacles.
    - tdkl 10y ago
      If you need parking sensors and cameras to successfully navigate in traffic, you might want to consider returning the driving license. Of course this doesn't mean negating the others who're capable of that.
      - 10y ago
LoSboccacc 10y ago
An an European I don't understand the careless way Americans are driven into debt. With the economy having 5 years burst cycles any longer loan is just asking for trouble. (also owner of a 13 yo Alfa Romeo which I got used 8 years ago and it's still kicking asses, paid 25% of original value because, Alfas)
- antisthenes 10y ago
  I'm onto you, Jeremy Clarkson!
nunez 10y ago
If you care about having recent technology and experience improvements, then 10 years is WAY too long of a refresh period. 5 years is the cutoff for me

searchfaster 10y ago

Same applies to a 600$ service every 3 years or 30K miles. Just to change oil, filters, flush refill all fluids and verify everything is alright. Easily doable under 75$ within an hour or two. My Sedan has been running fine with no dealer service or oil change for the past 12 years, over 120K miles.

camhenlin 10y ago
Neglecting on maintenance isn't great advice if people are looking for ways to get more out of their vehicles. Nearly every car around will need a lot more than fluids and filters every 120k miles.
- Maakuth 10y ago
  In many if not most vehicles, not replacing belts after their specified age is risking serious damage to the engine. Still I agree that the official branded service is often a ripoff.
  - diebir 10y ago
    Not "belts" but timing belt. Check if your car has interference or non-interference engine. The replacement interval is often at 120K miles, after which it becomes a gamble, but may last 200K.
- anticodon 10y ago
  I do service on my bike and car myself. It's not as difficult as most people think. Not only it's cheaper but also more reliable. I've seen too many times how workers at the dealer forget to tighten some nut, or forget to put some cover back after maintenance, or change the brake pads but don't change or grease other brake parts, etc. They are not interested in doing quality work.
  - Inconel 10y ago
    I had two experiences that convinced me to start changing my own fluids and doing basic maintenance. One time I took my Honda to a dealer for an oil change and they over tightened the oil pan plug to the point that the threads stripped off. Of course I only discovered this after a period of some time so I had no recourse. I had to pay for a new oil pan and installation. After that I vowed not to take my car to the dealer so I took it to a well reviewed independent shop. On the way home after a fluid change and radiator flush my engine temp shot up and I discovered they hadn't installed a radiator cap. Since then I've found a really good local mechanic, but being that he's in demand, his prices are high and getting an appointment on my day off can be a problem. I still take my car to him at least once a year for service and to have him look things over but other than that I do my own basic service. I usually schedule a day with a few friends and we work on our cars together. It makes things more social and less of a chore.
- diebir 10y ago
  The less maintenance a modern car gets, the better. That is, aside from the oil changes and things like brakes that wear out can be easily done DIY. In fact, once you start to service your car, that's where the problems start. We are not paying enough for mechanics to pay attention or care. The cars are not always designed for serviceability, some things can simply never be put back together the way they were done in the factory. There are no shops, official or not, that will use the recommended by vendor procedures or swap out all the required parts when doing some work. Modern Japanese cars seem to last quite fine with zero service (again beside oil changes, brakes, fluids and such) for 200K+ miles/15+ years, after which they are worth so little and work costs so much that donating to NPR is the only practical option.
  - BuckRogers 10y ago
    You are definitely on the money. I hate taking my cars in for any work, there's always a screw missing or something broken that wasn't before. IF you work on it yourself later, you'll notice, which I do. No matter where you go. I prefer to just do it myself but buying the new tools involved and (to a lesser extent) the time involved is prohibitive. I do change things that aren't difficult such as replacing a turn signal switch in the steering column. But I think the premium for a Toyota or Honda is definitely worth it- paying to reduce probability of having someone wrench on your vehicle, leaving it with a new problem for each one it resolved. Then just hope no one runs into you resulting in the same issue- wishful thinking in an era where everyone is looking down at a phone (which should result in reckless driving charges and jail time). I suppose it's like expecting even halfway decent QA on software that you purchase. At every place I've worked there is not even a dedicated SQL DBA let alone a legitimate QA effort or team.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Small thread diversion: I do all my own maintenance (excluding tire replacement). This is one of the things I loved about maintaining my diesel Mercedes. It was clear that thought and great care was put into fastener choice. (Most) Anything that needed to be removed for service was a permanent fastener. No push-through "Christmas tree" fasteners on parts that needed removing for service; it was a threaded insert and a screw. Where the parts needed a plastic fitting, it was a permanent/reusable expanding plastic fastener, not a push-in fitting. Contrast that with the Honda that needed less service, but so many jobs involved doing the job and then also replacing the broken one-time or few-time use plastic fasteners (after trying to find and buy it). Similar with my older Jeeps and VWs. MB seemed to design their car to be serviced for 500K km. Others seem to design it to be cheap and fast to assemble and pass the "initial quality survey" and maybe the length of the warranty period without too many defects.

perryh2 10y ago

I love browsing cars for sale online that are 2-3 years old with <30K miles. They're the best value and like you said the price is just 2/3 of the cost new at the time. People need to realize that a car (even Ferraris) loses anywhere between 35-50% within 3-4 years. Good used cars dealerships with online presence move a TON of inventory everyday. Carsense.com uses the online checkout system from drivemotors.com (I used to work here) and the prices they display on their websites are wild. You can literally buy a car from them without haggling.

phamilton 10y ago
I've heard this (loss of 35-50% within 3-4 years) and it's not really true. (Or at least, depends on the vehicle.) A 2017 Honda Accord goes for $20k new. A 2014 of the same model with 45k miles goes for $16k (KBB). A 2011 of the same model with 90k miles goes for $10k (KBB). Basically, the first 3 years and 45k miles it depreciates $4000. The second 3 years and 45k it loses $6000 more in value. Arguably it's cheaper to buy new and sell after 3 years than to buy 3 years old and sell after 3 years. The years 7-9 are when the car stops losing value so quickly. Worth $6700 in year 9 and 135k miles. The last 3 years and 45k miles only depreciate $3300.
- imperialdrive 10y ago
  It's one thing for new cars that are 20K, but for example, my last car was a Japanese built 2003 Toyota Avalon XLS loaded, 47K new plus taxes, purchased certified in N. Hollywood for 17.5K out-the-door in 2008 with a warranty. Only oil changes and a couple batteries, and I still keep it around after 189K miles! It's not worth much for resale now, but it still drives likes new... go used, take care of it, spend money on more exciting things!
- perryh2 10y ago
  The Honda Accord actually holds value pretty well. It's also pretty cheap as a brand new car, so as you can imagine, it won't depreciate as much as other cars. My figures hold true for most other cars though.

chrisper 10y ago

Unless, of course, people want newer engines that are more efficient, want newest technology (carplay / android auto), and want newest safety equipment. At this point it's maybe not so much that they need one, but that they want one. I for sure don't want to keep cars forever. Maybe I misread your comment, but keeping a car for 10 years may not be for everyone.

coldtea 10y ago
>Unless, of course, people want newer engines that are more efficient, want newest technology (carplay / android auto), and want newest safety equipment. Those changes, generation to generation (2-3 years) will be marginal if even present anyway, except on rare cases. And even them are more like "want" than need, as you say. >Maybe I misread your comment, but keeping a car for 10 years may not be for everyone. Might not be to the mindset of everyone, but that's what the parent addresses.
- chrisper 10y ago
  Yes, it won't make a difference between 2-3 years, but it would make a difference if you kept a car for 10 years.
nickff 10y ago
I instinctively agree with you, but the difference between need and want is a tough one to draw these days. I err on the side of believing that 'need' is a narrow category, comprising of only the things which are necessary for the short-term survival of healthy humans, but others have a broader understanding of the term.
- chrisper 10y ago
  Yes. People who work 3 jobs should not worry about getting a new car for the reasons I mentioned above. Maybe my arguments work better for (upper?) middle-class.
thatcat 10y ago
>newer more efficient engines Losing a bunch of money as depreciation for a marginally more efficient car doesn't really make accounting sense. >android auto /carplay These are accessories that car manufactures generally do a worse job of producing than 3rd parties.

viraptor 10y ago

I get the idea of what you're saying, but there are absolutely reasons to buy a new-ish car: safety. Rear facing camera, better structure, abs, traction control, automatic emergency breaking, etc. have all either been added or improved not that long ago. It's not as massive difference as between 1950's and 2000, but there's still a considerable improvement. It doesn't mean you need a new one straight from the dealer of course. Buying something slightly used will save you lots of money.

tdkl 10y ago
He said 10 years ago, not 30.
- viraptor 10y ago
  Unless you're after the more expensive models, a lot of security features were not available as a standard in cars from ~2007. You can still easily find cars without parking sensors or cameras today.
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    There is parking assistance and then there are major safety features like ABS and better structures. Is a 2007 civic or accord missing those things?
    - viraptor 10y ago
      You say parking assistance. I say a warning system for not backing into small people and obstacles.
  - tdkl 10y ago
    If you need parking sensors and cameras to successfully navigate in traffic, you might want to consider returning the driving license. Of course this doesn't mean negating the others who're capable of that.
    - 10y ago

LoSboccacc 10y ago

An an European I don't understand the careless way Americans are driven into debt. With the economy having 5 years burst cycles any longer loan is just asking for trouble. (also owner of a 13 yo Alfa Romeo which I got used 8 years ago and it's still kicking asses, paid 25% of original value because, Alfas)

antisthenes 10y ago
I'm onto you, Jeremy Clarkson!

nunez 10y ago

If you care about having recent technology and experience improvements, then 10 years is WAY too long of a refresh period. 5 years is the cutoff for me