6 ms·

Map showing the homeland of every character in Homer’s Iliad

120 points by juanplusjuan 10y ago

ballesta25 10y ago
It doesn't say which Ajax is which?
- anvandare 10y ago
  Good point. The great Ajax is the brother of Teucer and son of Telamon, from Achaea. The lesser Ajax is the son of Oileus, from Locris. (Both Telamon and Oileus were Argonauts.)
Aethelwulf 10y ago
Original source is user Pinpin on Wikimedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece-en.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece-en.sv...
- gadders 10y ago
  Bit of an oversight not putting Helen on it. Awesome map though.
tuomosipola 10y ago
It gets really tricky when they use son-of-this-and-that. I'm working through the much shorter Ilias Latina and it's really hard to keep track of the characters.
- acqq 10y ago
  It's not that hard, but due to us not being used to these names, you'd benefit of taking notes. "Son-of-this-and-that" is just like the family name in their case. Something like, imagine, John Smithson and John Markson, if the narration starts about one person, once it will be refereed to as John Smithson, then probably just Smithson or just John. The second problem is that the narration assumes that the "famous" relations are known. If I mention the Beatles, then say just John, everybody knows John who. Or whoever now says England and then the Queen and Kate, everybody knows who's that about... But you're dealing with the stories from almost 3000 years ago.
pjmlp 10y ago
> I wonder if that level of mobility was accurate for the time Looking at old scripts or books like the one from Herodotus, I would say yes, just that it would take a few days/weeks instead of hours. Also since the traveling meant being able to fight for your life, only the adventurous would do it.
- douche 10y ago
  There were pretty extensive trading networks in the late Bronze Age[1]. I'm not sure what the accepted timeframe for the Trojan War is now, whether it is in that late bronze age period or has been pushed up into the following dark age, but it does increasingly seem that voyages around Greece and the greater Mediterranean as in Homer would not be that unusual. [1] https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385 https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turni...
  - tuomosipola 10y ago
    Sea travel would have been the fastest and possibly safest way in any case.
    - macintux 10y ago
      Odysseus' crew would beg to differ.
  - trgn 10y ago
    Sea faring is front and center in the Odyssey, and mentions the more mundane reasons why people would travel by boat; trading, pilgrimages, family reunions, ... It must have been dangerous for sure, but common experience as well.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      And in that particular case, the sea travel took 10 years, rather than weeks or months. With favorable winds or strong oarsmen, a vessel can transit from the port on one island in the Aegean to another in days. With diesel engines, cruise ships can make those same trips overnight, while the passengers are sleeping. Seafaring ships and river boats were the highest-throughput way to transport soldiers and cargo for thousands of years, until one empire or another built an overland road and maintained it. Sea travelers had to deal with adverse weather and piracy. Land travelers had to deal with inconvenient terrain, adverse weather, taxes or tolls, banditry, and blisters.
PeterisP 10y ago
"it was surprising to me how geographically widespread the hometowns of the characters were" On the contrary, that was quite unsurprising, because the story describes a fight of two large alliances, and talks about the lords and rulers of these places. It doesn't talk about the local warriors e.g. Agamemnon was leading, but talks about the actual allies, the lords that joined each with their own armies. In that time when Homer says "Lord-A and Lord-B and Lord-C participated" it's the equivalent of modern "Country-A and Country-B and Country-C participated". It's not like the story is describing a band of adventurers, the both sides commonly represent pretty much the whole military might of the surrounding region at the time, and since there's no centralization yet, each local "warband" is lead by their local "kings"/warlords/leaders/nobles, who are named in the story. The colored areas of the map are not just a homeland of random representative characters, but the "countries" that actually fought in the war - you could say that it is "a way of making listeners from many areas feel connected to the story", or you could say that it is simply not omitting any participants; For example skipping Philoctetes from the list would pretty much mean saying that the land of Meliboea didn't participate in the war - it's like omitting New Zealand from the list of WW2 Allies, it would be far more serious than making people connected to the story, it would be considered offensive.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Also, keep in mind that the entire landmass displayed in the map is approximately the area of Ohio
  - hughdbrown 10y ago
    It looks to me that the map goes from the modern Turkish-Bulgarian border across to the Albanian-Montenegran border in the north and includes all of Greece and 20-25% of Turkey. I'd say it is 100% Greece (51 000 sq miles), 20% Turkey (60 000 sq miles), 90% Albania (10 000 sq miles), 90% Macedonia (8 000 sq miles), 15% Bulgaria (6 000 sq miles). So about 135 000 sq miles versus 45 000 sq miles for Ohio. So I'd say the landmass represented is about 3 times the size of Ohio. (And we are not counting the water.)
- ethbro 10y ago
astrobase_go 10y ago
There really should be a legend on here: 1) There are boxes of two different colors here, light green versus yellow. I read the Iliad in high school, so I forget if there are actual differences that the creator was attempting to codify. I shouldn't have to look it up, good information design should make that apparent to the unfamiliar viewer. 2) I assume the crosses are meant to signify that the character died at some point? If that's true, perhaps another signifier would be more appropriate, since that seems to the uninitiated to be associated with the death of a Christian person. Since this was written sometime beyond 1,000 B.C.E., I'm going to say that those people weren't Christians. Would love for someone with the time/ability to edit that map to make these updates.
- tuomosipola 10y ago
  1) The green ones are the Greeks, yellow ones are the Trojans. I think there should be a legend for this. 2) Needs legend. Actually, the cross might typographically be the dagger character, which usually looks like a cross. But in this case it looks a lot like a cross. I think it is used quite universally as the sign of death in books about history, and I haven't seen any other sign used instead. I completely agree that many Wikipedia maps and graphs have this problem. The symbols and colors are not explained in the figure itself. I guess it's because they want to be able to translate them easily.
- pvg 10y ago
  Yes, the crosses mark the characters that died in the war. The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation - we don't spell the names of the characters in the original ancient Greek either.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation If where you live is mostly Christian it may seem that way, but that symbol is only used by Christianity (and is it even used by Eastern Orthodox?). Go to Muslim, Hindu, Confucian, Jewish, etc. cemeteries and look around.
tragomaskhalos 10y ago
I imagine that Homer would have killed to have this on a Powerpoint slide when he got to reciting the Catalogue of the Ships :)
JabavuAdams 10y ago
Spoilers! Achilles dies?
bbctol 10y ago
In Iliad 12, the Trojans wish for the Achaeans to die unremembered; in the original Greek, literally "nameless." This map is a good reminder that the level of detail in the Iliad is no accident, it's an integral part of what the story's about.

120 points by juanplusjuan 10y ago

ballesta25 10y ago

It doesn't say which Ajax is which?

anvandare 10y ago
Good point. The great Ajax is the brother of Teucer and son of Telamon, from Achaea. The lesser Ajax is the son of Oileus, from Locris. (Both Telamon and Oileus were Argonauts.)

Aethelwulf 10y ago

Original source is user Pinpin on Wikimedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece-en.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece-en.sv...

gadders 10y ago
Bit of an oversight not putting Helen on it. Awesome map though.

tuomosipola 10y ago

It gets really tricky when they use son-of-this-and-that. I'm working through the much shorter Ilias Latina and it's really hard to keep track of the characters.

acqq 10y ago
It's not that hard, but due to us not being used to these names, you'd benefit of taking notes. "Son-of-this-and-that" is just like the family name in their case. Something like, imagine, John Smithson and John Markson, if the narration starts about one person, once it will be refereed to as John Smithson, then probably just Smithson or just John. The second problem is that the narration assumes that the "famous" relations are known. If I mention the Beatles, then say just John, everybody knows John who. Or whoever now says England and then the Queen and Kate, everybody knows who's that about... But you're dealing with the stories from almost 3000 years ago.

pjmlp 10y ago

> I wonder if that level of mobility was accurate for the time Looking at old scripts or books like the one from Herodotus, I would say yes, just that it would take a few days/weeks instead of hours. Also since the traveling meant being able to fight for your life, only the adventurous would do it.

douche 10y ago
There were pretty extensive trading networks in the late Bronze Age[1]. I'm not sure what the accepted timeframe for the Trojan War is now, whether it is in that late bronze age period or has been pushed up into the following dark age, but it does increasingly seem that voyages around Greece and the greater Mediterranean as in Homer would not be that unusual. [1] https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385 https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turni...
- tuomosipola 10y ago
  Sea travel would have been the fastest and possibly safest way in any case.
  - macintux 10y ago
    Odysseus' crew would beg to differ.
- trgn 10y ago
  Sea faring is front and center in the Odyssey, and mentions the more mundane reasons why people would travel by boat; trading, pilgrimages, family reunions, ... It must have been dangerous for sure, but common experience as well.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    And in that particular case, the sea travel took 10 years, rather than weeks or months. With favorable winds or strong oarsmen, a vessel can transit from the port on one island in the Aegean to another in days. With diesel engines, cruise ships can make those same trips overnight, while the passengers are sleeping. Seafaring ships and river boats were the highest-throughput way to transport soldiers and cargo for thousands of years, until one empire or another built an overland road and maintained it. Sea travelers had to deal with adverse weather and piracy. Land travelers had to deal with inconvenient terrain, adverse weather, taxes or tolls, banditry, and blisters.

PeterisP 10y ago

"it was surprising to me how geographically widespread the hometowns of the characters were" On the contrary, that was quite unsurprising, because the story describes a fight of two large alliances, and talks about the lords and rulers of these places. It doesn't talk about the local warriors e.g. Agamemnon was leading, but talks about the actual allies, the lords that joined each with their own armies. In that time when Homer says "Lord-A and Lord-B and Lord-C participated" it's the equivalent of modern "Country-A and Country-B and Country-C participated". It's not like the story is describing a band of adventurers, the both sides commonly represent pretty much the whole military might of the surrounding region at the time, and since there's no centralization yet, each local "warband" is lead by their local "kings"/warlords/leaders/nobles, who are named in the story. The colored areas of the map are not just a homeland of random representative characters, but the "countries" that actually fought in the war - you could say that it is "a way of making listeners from many areas feel connected to the story", or you could say that it is simply not omitting any participants; For example skipping Philoctetes from the list would pretty much mean saying that the land of Meliboea didn't participate in the war - it's like omitting New Zealand from the list of WW2 Allies, it would be far more serious than making people connected to the story, it would be considered offensive.

oh_sigh 10y ago
Also, keep in mind that the entire landmass displayed in the map is approximately the area of Ohio
- hughdbrown 10y ago
  It looks to me that the map goes from the modern Turkish-Bulgarian border across to the Albanian-Montenegran border in the north and includes all of Greece and 20-25% of Turkey. I'd say it is 100% Greece (51 000 sq miles), 20% Turkey (60 000 sq miles), 90% Albania (10 000 sq miles), 90% Macedonia (8 000 sq miles), 15% Bulgaria (6 000 sq miles). So about 135 000 sq miles versus 45 000 sq miles for Ohio. So I'd say the landmass represented is about 3 times the size of Ohio. (And we are not counting the water.)
ethbro 10y ago

astrobase_go 10y ago

There really should be a legend on here: 1) There are boxes of two different colors here, light green versus yellow. I read the Iliad in high school, so I forget if there are actual differences that the creator was attempting to codify. I shouldn't have to look it up, good information design should make that apparent to the unfamiliar viewer. 2) I assume the crosses are meant to signify that the character died at some point? If that's true, perhaps another signifier would be more appropriate, since that seems to the uninitiated to be associated with the death of a Christian person. Since this was written sometime beyond 1,000 B.C.E., I'm going to say that those people weren't Christians. Would love for someone with the time/ability to edit that map to make these updates.

tuomosipola 10y ago
1) The green ones are the Greeks, yellow ones are the Trojans. I think there should be a legend for this. 2) Needs legend. Actually, the cross might typographically be the dagger character, which usually looks like a cross. But in this case it looks a lot like a cross. I think it is used quite universally as the sign of death in books about history, and I haven't seen any other sign used instead. I completely agree that many Wikipedia maps and graphs have this problem. The symbols and colors are not explained in the figure itself. I guess it's because they want to be able to translate them easily.
pvg 10y ago
Yes, the crosses mark the characters that died in the war. The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation - we don't spell the names of the characters in the original ancient Greek either.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation If where you live is mostly Christian it may seem that way, but that symbol is only used by Christianity (and is it even used by Eastern Orthodox?). Go to Muslim, Hindu, Confucian, Jewish, etc. cemeteries and look around.

tragomaskhalos 10y ago

I imagine that Homer would have killed to have this on a Powerpoint slide when he got to reciting the Catalogue of the Ships :)

JabavuAdams 10y ago

Spoilers! Achilles dies?

bbctol 10y ago

In Iliad 12, the Trojans wish for the Achaeans to die unremembered; in the original Greek, literally "nameless." This map is a good reminder that the level of detail in the Iliad is no accident, it's an integral part of what the story's about.