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I think this (and its attendant media coverage) is great because it brings religious irrationality and violence to the attention of the non hacker mainstream me

I think this (and its attendant media coverage) is great because it brings religious irrationality and violence to the attention of the non hacker mainstream media. I understand why Muslims wouldn't want to draw Mohammed but insisting that non Muslims shouldn't draw Mohammed is insane. This would be like Buddhists insisting that since to them, meat eating is abhorrent, they ( or a "small minority" ) would feel offended enough to kill someone who did. Now I am going to draw a Mohammed stick figure and put it up on my website. It is "Everybody draw Mohammed" day after all, no matter what the cowards at Facebook think. Lots of people don't friggin believe in the sanctity of this "prophet" or his religion so why should they abide by his mandates? All Religion should die and be some kind of fringe cult so the rest of us can live in peace. Hopefully in a few centuries.

Jd 16y ago
The important thing isn't a zillion people doing their own thing in their own place, it is being coordinated about standing up our rights. This is a great opportunity.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Coordinated? Standing up for your rights? This is insane. You're not standing up for any rights. You're not challenging a power structure and you're not risking anything. You're mocking a tiny powerless religious minority. That's it. The only standing that you're doing is with bigots. Think for a moment and explain to me how this "coordinated" action makes the world a better place. Explain what change you expect to happen and how you plan to effect it. Edited to add: Why do you believe a group that murders and threatens people with death (fundamentalist muslims) are powerless? Many many groups murder and threaten people with death (some of these we call "governments"). The US started a war that exterminated a million people for no reason. We didn't just threaten people, we actually killed a lot of them. And yet many Americans are perfectly reasonable people who are very friendly. What a paradox. Having actually studied Islamist movements a bit, I know something you don't. Most of them don't care about you. You are not important, and no matter how many pictures of Mohammad you draw, you will never be important. Their priority is some local and often nationalist issue. They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. A small number of Islamist groups might care about "Americans" in a broader sense. But these groups generally lack both capabilities and competence. Smart people consider capabilities when analyzing threats. People that hate you but are powerless don't count when it comes to rational threat analysis. A few nutjobs in New York are not a real threat. I tell you what: why don't you list for me the many acts of horrific violence that have come about because of the giant frieze of Mohammad on the Supreme Court building and I'll seriously consider the danger you face. Deal?
  - nailer 16y ago
    Why do you believe a group that murders and threatens people with death (fundamentalist muslims) are powerless?
kashif 16y ago
Buddhists don't abhor meet eating. Draw all the Mohammeds you want. I think its a stupid/trivial issue to waste any time on.
peters 16y ago
plinkplonk 2--> Well you gave a pathetic example. I really feel sorry saying this but in response to your example, here is mine. You do not want your mom to get raped but why would stop other people to rape her? means you respect her right and she is the most important person in your life. I am a christian but I really feel sorry when I see comments like you have written. Why do we need to draw cartoon I mean cant we just think about other issues? why are you bothered about other religions?
mdh 16y ago
I'd distinguish between a right and an obligation. If you have something worthwhile to say about Mohammed and his teachings (be it for or against) and a depiction of him will help, go ahead and draw him. If however, you're doing it just because you can, then you're doing nothing to help reduce inter-religion tension and, in fact, are exhibiting some of the same sort of dogmatic insistence that everyone conform to your views that you are railing against. (NB speculation as i am not a muslim, i know only a small number of muslims personally and obviously haven't surveyed the world's muslim population for this). The subset of muslims who will threaten to kill you over this is VERY small and the proportion of that group who would actually ever attempt to do anything about it is miniscule. However, the number of muslims who would find your gesture unfriendly or just straight offensive is quite large. Net result: you've upset a large body of people with whom you have no real quarrel and the people whom you have a real beef with have 'proof' that the non-muslim world wants to undermine Islam. In my opinion, if the picture on your website has no context (and a link to Facebook group isn't a proper context), then you haven't really helped matters and have probably hindered them.
- nailer 16y ago
  > you're doing it just because you can, then you're doing nothing to help reduce inter-religion tension and Agreed. But I think individual rights triumph the need for harmony with people who seek to rule our minds and tongues. > in fact, are exhibiting some of the same sort of dogmatic insistence that everyone conform to your views that you are railing against. How so? I'm not trying to change how anyone else thinks, or what they say.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
The ignorance here is astonishing. Muslims don't actually insist that non-Muslims refrain from drawing Mohammad. Have you ever been to the Supreme Court building in DC? It has a giant frieze depicting Mohammad (see http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf ). And yet Muslims don't complain about that. In fact, several famous pieces of Islamic art well known in the Arab world depict Mohammad. A simple depiction is not the issue. What is the issue is when people use depictions of Mohammad as a way of insulting Muslims. Stick figures don't do that. Pictures of Mohammad as a terrorist do. That's what triggered riots. Note that out of a billion Muslims, the only people complaining about the recent Southpark episode were a tiny nutball group in NYC founded by a former Jew. But hey! By all means, put a stupid drawing on your website. That'll change the world! Muslims that see it will just assume that you're an ignorant bigot who hates Muslims, but I'm sure you'll feel better, and isn't that what this is all about? Having an excuse for self-righteous moral preening? Feeling smug and superior without actually doing anything to improve the world?
- nailer 16y ago
  People are expressing the right to mock and criticise ideas. They are using Mohammed as people unfortunately have been murdered for publicly insulting him, and they are showing solidarity. This is a good thing, and shows people who want to hurt others that the people they prey on have a lot of friends who they'll also have to hurt if they are to succeed in their objectives. This is a good thing.

Jd 16y ago

The important thing isn't a zillion people doing their own thing in their own place, it is being coordinated about standing up our rights. This is a great opportunity.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
Coordinated? Standing up for your rights? This is insane. You're not standing up for any rights. You're not challenging a power structure and you're not risking anything. You're mocking a tiny powerless religious minority. That's it. The only standing that you're doing is with bigots. Think for a moment and explain to me how this "coordinated" action makes the world a better place. Explain what change you expect to happen and how you plan to effect it. Edited to add: Why do you believe a group that murders and threatens people with death (fundamentalist muslims) are powerless? Many many groups murder and threaten people with death (some of these we call "governments"). The US started a war that exterminated a million people for no reason. We didn't just threaten people, we actually killed a lot of them. And yet many Americans are perfectly reasonable people who are very friendly. What a paradox. Having actually studied Islamist movements a bit, I know something you don't. Most of them don't care about you. You are not important, and no matter how many pictures of Mohammad you draw, you will never be important. Their priority is some local and often nationalist issue. They. Just. Don't. Care. About. You. A small number of Islamist groups might care about "Americans" in a broader sense. But these groups generally lack both capabilities and competence. Smart people consider capabilities when analyzing threats. People that hate you but are powerless don't count when it comes to rational threat analysis. A few nutjobs in New York are not a real threat. I tell you what: why don't you list for me the many acts of horrific violence that have come about because of the giant frieze of Mohammad on the Supreme Court building and I'll seriously consider the danger you face. Deal?
- nailer 16y ago
  Why do you believe a group that murders and threatens people with death (fundamentalist muslims) are powerless?

kashif 16y ago

Buddhists don't abhor meet eating. Draw all the Mohammeds you want. I think its a stupid/trivial issue to waste any time on.

peters 16y ago

plinkplonk 2--> Well you gave a pathetic example. I really feel sorry saying this but in response to your example, here is mine. You do not want your mom to get raped but why would stop other people to rape her? means you respect her right and she is the most important person in your life. I am a christian but I really feel sorry when I see comments like you have written. Why do we need to draw cartoon I mean cant we just think about other issues? why are you bothered about other religions?

mdh 16y ago

I'd distinguish between a right and an obligation. If you have something worthwhile to say about Mohammed and his teachings (be it for or against) and a depiction of him will help, go ahead and draw him. If however, you're doing it just because you can, then you're doing nothing to help reduce inter-religion tension and, in fact, are exhibiting some of the same sort of dogmatic insistence that everyone conform to your views that you are railing against. (NB speculation as i am not a muslim, i know only a small number of muslims personally and obviously haven't surveyed the world's muslim population for this). The subset of muslims who will threaten to kill you over this is VERY small and the proportion of that group who would actually ever attempt to do anything about it is miniscule. However, the number of muslims who would find your gesture unfriendly or just straight offensive is quite large. Net result: you've upset a large body of people with whom you have no real quarrel and the people whom you have a real beef with have 'proof' that the non-muslim world wants to undermine Islam. In my opinion, if the picture on your website has no context (and a link to Facebook group isn't a proper context), then you haven't really helped matters and have probably hindered them.

nailer 16y ago
> you're doing it just because you can, then you're doing nothing to help reduce inter-religion tension and Agreed. But I think individual rights triumph the need for harmony with people who seek to rule our minds and tongues. > in fact, are exhibiting some of the same sort of dogmatic insistence that everyone conform to your views that you are railing against. How so? I'm not trying to change how anyone else thinks, or what they say.

MichaelSalib 16y ago

The ignorance here is astonishing. Muslims don't actually insist that non-Muslims refrain from drawing Mohammad. Have you ever been to the Supreme Court building in DC? It has a giant frieze depicting Mohammad (see http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf ). And yet Muslims don't complain about that. In fact, several famous pieces of Islamic art well known in the Arab world depict Mohammad. A simple depiction is not the issue. What is the issue is when people use depictions of Mohammad as a way of insulting Muslims. Stick figures don't do that. Pictures of Mohammad as a terrorist do. That's what triggered riots. Note that out of a billion Muslims, the only people complaining about the recent Southpark episode were a tiny nutball group in NYC founded by a former Jew. But hey! By all means, put a stupid drawing on your website. That'll change the world! Muslims that see it will just assume that you're an ignorant bigot who hates Muslims, but I'm sure you'll feel better, and isn't that what this is all about? Having an excuse for self-righteous moral preening? Feeling smug and superior without actually doing anything to improve the world?

nailer 16y ago
People are expressing the right to mock and criticise ideas. They are using Mohammed as people unfortunately have been murdered for publicly insulting him, and they are showing solidarity. This is a good thing, and shows people who want to hurt others that the people they prey on have a lot of friends who they'll also have to hurt if they are to succeed in their objectives. This is a good thing.