4 ms·

I design both boring machines and tunnels and am a regular reader on HN. I have worked on tunnels ranging from the smallest to the largest, rock to soil, and a

by abduhl 10y ago

I design both boring machines and tunnels and am a regular reader on HN. I have worked on tunnels ranging from the smallest to the largest, rock to soil, and all forms of construction. I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my experience and expertise when it does not align with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" have said or published in their desk studies.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
What's the going rate for a used tunnel boring machine? EDIT: "New machines normally cost at least $15 million, but a decade of frantic subway construction in China has created a glut, and lightly used models can be had for 90 percent off sticker." I could Kickstart a tunnel boring machine purchase. What a time to be alive.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Awesome! I've got a question that I have not been able to answer. Seattle's "Big Bertha" is surplus once they finish the Alaska Viaduct project in a few months. What process could I use to establish whether or not one could use that machine locally? Assume I can get an inventory of all parts used in the machine. And a related question, is there a way to estimate the cost to retarget a used machine to a new mission?
- abduhl 10y ago
  I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the litigation on the SR 99 job. I don't know what you would be able or want to use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. It is unlikely that you will get an inventory of all the parts in the machine. If you really want a machine then you would just call the contractor and ask them their price. You would likely have to pay for delivery. The process to establish whether or not one could use that machine locally is just whether or not you have a job that needs a 58.5 ft diameter TBM set up the way theirs is. In other words, the process to establish whether or not one could use the machine again locally is basically to go through the design process for the tunnel (preliminary design, geotechnical exploration, laboratory testing, final design, etc.).
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    > I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the > litigation on the SR 99 job. Can you say a bit more about this? I had reasoned that the litigation would make it more likely that Bertha would be purchasable as a way to offset costs/losses for the party that holds title to the equipment. > I don't know what you would be able or want to > use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. One of the longest bus routes in the Bay Area is the '22'. It travels up and down El Camino Real from San Jose to Palo Alto. El Camino Real keeps going north right up the peninsula to San Francisco. To the south it goes down to Gilroy. My proposal is to tunnel from the where it crosses Highway 152, up past Palo Alto and into Milbrae where there is both a CalTrain and BART station about 200' off of El Camino Real. My proposal would be to create bus stops along the way that took you up to the surface street of El Camino along the way. Then run bus service north south, with several different bus types "express", "local", "intercity", etc. The tunnel diameter can support four lanes of traffic (two in each direction) allowing for buses to pass one another and to support multiple schedules in the same tunnel. Based on my evaluation of the Viaduct plan this plan would use it in substantially the same way.
    - abduhl 10y ago
      >Can you say a bit more about this? No, I can't. Regarding the rest of your post, you would need to carry out a geotechnical investigation to see if the soils are amenable to a machine like Bertha. I would guess not, based on my experience in both areas, due to the differences in the geology.
    - pnathan 10y ago
      Running a bit late here, but Bertha is widely considered by informed laypeople in Seattle to be the wrong solution: two smaller TBMs would have been better. The Big Bertha solution is widely considered to have been picked as a part of civic pride "a yuge tunnel!!!" rather than on engineering concerns. I'd suggest looking at the Sound Transit "ST2" tunnel boring project, it's been massively simpler in execution.
      - ChuckMcM 10y ago
woodandsteel 10y ago
Everything you have to say on this topic may be perfectly correct. But you have to remember that Musk has a habit of producing major technological advances that the all experts had previously agreed were simply impossible.
- abduhl 10y ago
  I look forward to his major technological advances, especially in the fields of property and easement acquisition, third party impacts and claims, and environmental and safety regulations. Hopefully Elon's advances aren't the same as the cure for AIDS: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-aids http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-a...
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    > I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related > Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my > experience and expertise when it does not align > with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" > have said or published in their desk studies. I think you may be misreading the response here. When you write comments in a snarky way (as you did in the parent of this comment) it completely obscures your information to the reader because they respond emotionally to the snark first. I truly believe that the number of people with your experience reading this is probably in the low single digits, so you have a tremendous amount to offer. It is easier to hear it if you put it out there with respect rather than disdain. Had you phrased it like this "The challenges are less technical and more in the political side of infrastructure, property and easement acquisition, dealing with spurious suits from third parties, and the ever present complex series of environmental and safety regulations. While I admire Elon's ambition and desire to get things done, these political issues have stymied projects literally for decades, and I can't see even his star power being able to defeat rampant NIMBYism." It would be easier to hear your expertise in your writing.
    - abduhl 10y ago
      I used to post reasonable and non-snarky comments like this. I stopped doing it after about the fourth or fifth time that the commenters responding to my posts told me that I clearly had no idea what I was talking about and was uninformed because they had read the Hyperloop white paper. This literally only happens in Musk related threads. Your profile says you work in machine learning - imagine if every thread you posted in about machine learning you were told that you were an idiot because someone had read I, Robot and the AI in that doesn't match your idea of ML so of course you're wrong. So I just try not to post in most tunneling related topics, especially those related to Musk, any more unless I see something interesting (like your original comment for this whole thread noting that nobody here knows anything about tunneling). When I do find something interesting I try to respond honestly and directly, as you can see with my other responses in this thread; however, the GP comment here offers nothing to the debate other than basically saying "Elon is a superhero". I would not be surprised if others in their respective fields take a similar approach in other cult of personality topics (Uber, Elon, Apple, etc.).

by abduhl 10y ago

toomuchtodo 10y ago

What's the going rate for a used tunnel boring machine? EDIT: "New machines normally cost at least $15 million, but a decade of frantic subway construction in China has created a glut, and lightly used models can be had for 90 percent off sticker." I could Kickstart a tunnel boring machine purchase. What a time to be alive.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

Awesome! I've got a question that I have not been able to answer. Seattle's "Big Bertha" is surplus once they finish the Alaska Viaduct project in a few months. What process could I use to establish whether or not one could use that machine locally? Assume I can get an inventory of all parts used in the machine. And a related question, is there a way to estimate the cost to retarget a used machine to a new mission?

abduhl 10y ago
I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the litigation on the SR 99 job. I don't know what you would be able or want to use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. It is unlikely that you will get an inventory of all the parts in the machine. If you really want a machine then you would just call the contractor and ask them their price. You would likely have to pay for delivery. The process to establish whether or not one could use that machine locally is just whether or not you have a job that needs a 58.5 ft diameter TBM set up the way theirs is. In other words, the process to establish whether or not one could use the machine again locally is basically to go through the design process for the tunnel (preliminary design, geotechnical exploration, laboratory testing, final design, etc.).
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  > I doubt Bertha will be purchasable given the > litigation on the SR 99 job. Can you say a bit more about this? I had reasoned that the litigation would make it more likely that Bertha would be purchasable as a way to offset costs/losses for the party that holds title to the equipment. > I don't know what you would be able or want to > use it for - it's 58.5 ft in diameter. One of the longest bus routes in the Bay Area is the '22'. It travels up and down El Camino Real from San Jose to Palo Alto. El Camino Real keeps going north right up the peninsula to San Francisco. To the south it goes down to Gilroy. My proposal is to tunnel from the where it crosses Highway 152, up past Palo Alto and into Milbrae where there is both a CalTrain and BART station about 200' off of El Camino Real. My proposal would be to create bus stops along the way that took you up to the surface street of El Camino along the way. Then run bus service north south, with several different bus types "express", "local", "intercity", etc. The tunnel diameter can support four lanes of traffic (two in each direction) allowing for buses to pass one another and to support multiple schedules in the same tunnel. Based on my evaluation of the Viaduct plan this plan would use it in substantially the same way.
  - abduhl 10y ago
    >Can you say a bit more about this? No, I can't. Regarding the rest of your post, you would need to carry out a geotechnical investigation to see if the soils are amenable to a machine like Bertha. I would guess not, based on my experience in both areas, due to the differences in the geology.
  - pnathan 10y ago
    Running a bit late here, but Bertha is widely considered by informed laypeople in Seattle to be the wrong solution: two smaller TBMs would have been better. The Big Bertha solution is widely considered to have been picked as a part of civic pride "a yuge tunnel!!!" rather than on engineering concerns. I'd suggest looking at the Sound Transit "ST2" tunnel boring project, it's been massively simpler in execution.
    - ChuckMcM 10y ago

woodandsteel 10y ago

Everything you have to say on this topic may be perfectly correct. But you have to remember that Musk has a habit of producing major technological advances that the all experts had previously agreed were simply impossible.

abduhl 10y ago
I look forward to his major technological advances, especially in the fields of property and easement acquisition, third party impacts and claims, and environmental and safety regulations. Hopefully Elon's advances aren't the same as the cure for AIDS: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-aids http://southpark.cc.com/clips/164373/they-found-a-cure-for-a...
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  > I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related > Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my > experience and expertise when it does not align > with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" > have said or published in their desk studies. I think you may be misreading the response here. When you write comments in a snarky way (as you did in the parent of this comment) it completely obscures your information to the reader because they respond emotionally to the snark first. I truly believe that the number of people with your experience reading this is probably in the low single digits, so you have a tremendous amount to offer. It is easier to hear it if you put it out there with respect rather than disdain. Had you phrased it like this "The challenges are less technical and more in the political side of infrastructure, property and easement acquisition, dealing with spurious suits from third parties, and the ever present complex series of environmental and safety regulations. While I admire Elon's ambition and desire to get things done, these political issues have stymied projects literally for decades, and I can't see even his star power being able to defeat rampant NIMBYism." It would be easier to hear your expertise in your writing.
  - abduhl 10y ago
    I used to post reasonable and non-snarky comments like this. I stopped doing it after about the fourth or fifth time that the commenters responding to my posts told me that I clearly had no idea what I was talking about and was uninformed because they had read the Hyperloop white paper. This literally only happens in Musk related threads. Your profile says you work in machine learning - imagine if every thread you posted in about machine learning you were told that you were an idiot because someone had read I, Robot and the AI in that doesn't match your idea of ML so of course you're wrong. So I just try not to post in most tunneling related topics, especially those related to Musk, any more unless I see something interesting (like your original comment for this whole thread noting that nobody here knows anything about tunneling). When I do find something interesting I try to respond honestly and directly, as you can see with my other responses in this thread; however, the GP comment here offers nothing to the debate other than basically saying "Elon is a superhero". I would not be surprised if others in their respective fields take a similar approach in other cult of personality topics (Uber, Elon, Apple, etc.).