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not to nitpick, but so far Ukrainians have been running from Ukraine to Russia - 2.6 mil since 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia https://

not to nitpick, but so far Ukrainians have been running from Ukraine to Russia - 2.6 mil since 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia)

mamon 10y ago
Are you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Are you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Ans who said those aren't actual Ukrainians? Ukraine has been multi-ethnic for centuries... >Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority. And has had for centuries, but it's seldom mentioned in stories about "Russia invading Crimea". It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population of US ethnicity, Mexico's government was toppled to bring a coalition of anti-US parties in power (including actual neo-nazis, swastikas and all), and the US getting in Baja California to protect their citizens and their national interests and been called for it (not to mention that its somehow forgiven to do worse in Iraq and elsewhere, with actual deadly invasions, but Russia is called for intervening next to its borders and with Russian ethnicity population living there).
  - pvg 10y ago
    It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population It's not 'as if' and you're regurgitating Russian propaganda and shallow whataboutism. The key issue is Russia invaded and annexed a piece of a sovereign country, a country whose territorial integrity it was bound to respect not just by international norms but a relatively recent treaty. It just isn't comparable.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >It's not 'as if' Actually it is just like that. What part did you find unlike that? The "sovereignty"? Mexico, which I used as my example, is also sovereign. And the rest of the things are all true: Ukraine is directly in Russia's borders, it has areas with large ethnic Russian population, and it's legitimate government was toppled. Even the part about bona fide neo-nazis being part of the power coalition is true. >and you're regurgitating Russian propaganda No, I'm rather not force-fed with BS west propaganda for the events. (And I'm not Russian either, so it's not like I have a horse in the race. I just can't stand hypocrisy). Russia is a 1000 pound bear, mostly minding its own business and border interests, and is blamed by a 10,000 pound King Kong who rampages all over the globe. (USSR yes, it did pull the same kind of shit all around the globe too. But not today's minor player Russia). >and shallow whataboutism. Those that bring on "whataboutism" are the ones that are OK with one side doing all kinds of crap (even 10.000 miles away from it's borders, where it has no business to be, and with thousands of dead and total mayhem caused by its actions) but only criticize the other side for doing 1/100 as much -- and are quick to shout against whataboutism when that is pointed out to them. It's like a murderer calling out a guy that merely slapped an annoying person -- and when called on it, he complains about "whataboutitsm".
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        If America invaded Mexico I could get your point, but they didn't (so far, with Trump at the helm all bets are off). Oh, and Ukraine is not within Russia's borders. The USSR died a while ago.
        coldtea 10y ago
        >If America invaded Mexico I could get your point, but they didn't (so far, with Trump at the helm all bets are off). That's an analogy of something the US could do that it would be similar to the Crimea situation. In real life they did much worse (just in the past 10-15 years): they invaded 2 countries (and bombed 8 or so), bombed them, occupied them, created hell-holes of fundamentalism and mayhem where functional states once stood -- and they did that 6000+ miles away from their borders, where they have no place to be, and no ethnic Americans to protect there to justify their actions. >Oh, and Ukraine is not within Russia's borders. The USSR died a while ago. Not sure if you even know the region. The two countries share miles upon miles of borders. Except if you took "within" to mean "surrounded" -- I mean "right there in their border".
- shitgoose 10y ago
  and Crimea has a huge Russian majority, i guess that's why it fell off so easily. i wish Ukrainians would be more inclusive and stop separating Ukrainians into "real" ones and ethnic "others", whose only link to Ukraine is the Ukrainian passport.

mamon 10y ago

Are you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority.

coldtea 10y ago
>Are you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Ans who said those aren't actual Ukrainians? Ukraine has been multi-ethnic for centuries... >Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority. And has had for centuries, but it's seldom mentioned in stories about "Russia invading Crimea". It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population of US ethnicity, Mexico's government was toppled to bring a coalition of anti-US parties in power (including actual neo-nazis, swastikas and all), and the US getting in Baja California to protect their citizens and their national interests and been called for it (not to mention that its somehow forgiven to do worse in Iraq and elsewhere, with actual deadly invasions, but Russia is called for intervening next to its borders and with Russian ethnicity population living there).
- pvg 10y ago
  It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population It's not 'as if' and you're regurgitating Russian propaganda and shallow whataboutism. The key issue is Russia invaded and annexed a piece of a sovereign country, a country whose territorial integrity it was bound to respect not just by international norms but a relatively recent treaty. It just isn't comparable.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >It's not 'as if' Actually it is just like that. What part did you find unlike that? The "sovereignty"? Mexico, which I used as my example, is also sovereign. And the rest of the things are all true: Ukraine is directly in Russia's borders, it has areas with large ethnic Russian population, and it's legitimate government was toppled. Even the part about bona fide neo-nazis being part of the power coalition is true. >and you're regurgitating Russian propaganda No, I'm rather not force-fed with BS west propaganda for the events. (And I'm not Russian either, so it's not like I have a horse in the race. I just can't stand hypocrisy). Russia is a 1000 pound bear, mostly minding its own business and border interests, and is blamed by a 10,000 pound King Kong who rampages all over the globe. (USSR yes, it did pull the same kind of shit all around the globe too. But not today's minor player Russia). >and shallow whataboutism. Those that bring on "whataboutism" are the ones that are OK with one side doing all kinds of crap (even 10.000 miles away from it's borders, where it has no business to be, and with thousands of dead and total mayhem caused by its actions) but only criticize the other side for doing 1/100 as much -- and are quick to shout against whataboutism when that is pointed out to them. It's like a murderer calling out a guy that merely slapped an annoying person -- and when called on it, he complains about "whataboutitsm".
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      If America invaded Mexico I could get your point, but they didn't (so far, with Trump at the helm all bets are off). Oh, and Ukraine is not within Russia's borders. The USSR died a while ago.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >If America invaded Mexico I could get your point, but they didn't (so far, with Trump at the helm all bets are off). That's an analogy of something the US could do that it would be similar to the Crimea situation. In real life they did much worse (just in the past 10-15 years): they invaded 2 countries (and bombed 8 or so), bombed them, occupied them, created hell-holes of fundamentalism and mayhem where functional states once stood -- and they did that 6000+ miles away from their borders, where they have no place to be, and no ethnic Americans to protect there to justify their actions. >Oh, and Ukraine is not within Russia's borders. The USSR died a while ago. Not sure if you even know the region. The two countries share miles upon miles of borders. Except if you took "within" to mean "surrounded" -- I mean "right there in their border".
shitgoose 10y ago
and Crimea has a huge Russian majority, i guess that's why it fell off so easily. i wish Ukrainians would be more inclusive and stop separating Ukrainians into "real" ones and ethnic "others", whose only link to Ukraine is the Ukrainian passport.