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I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over politi

I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. [1] http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention-lam-wing-kee/ http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention... [2] http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwLPcBt1qqo http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwL... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladimir-kara-murza-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladi... [4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-death-of-boris-nemtsov http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-de... [5] http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guilty-in-embezzlement-case/a-37453596 http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guil...

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I wouldn't judge the whole of Eastern Europe or Asia based on one country, there's plenty of safe and welcoming places in both, E. Europe and Asia.
grey-area 10y ago
I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up till now. This kind of overreach should always be opposed, no matter who it is done to, or where, because once it is acceptable to assassinate people with missiles, kidnap opponents, or record everyone's digital life whenever information crosses the border, all it takes is the wrong sort of people to take power and all the mechanisms are in place to control and oppress entire populations.
- nojvek 10y ago
  It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years. Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?
  - grey-area 10y ago
    I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality. https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts/ https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit... The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    The right response to improvement, is to continue to improve. The world ain't perfect yet.
perch56 10y ago
I see you mentioned Eastern Europe but only include Russia. Eastern Europe includes many other countries open to LGBT communities. Don't always believe the news headlines as they tend to exaggerate. Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity. Really? Try talking to locals there not just about gays but also about refugees or even gypsies...
  - oblio 10y ago
    You're mixing up blatant discrimination (the first category) with two very complicated social problems. People aren't necessarily against refugees, per se, but more against the idea of accepting anyone who declares himself to be a refugee, without checking that he is, in fact, one. Things are made worse by a few "refugee" cases where the "refugees" preferred to move away and live as illegal immigrants in Germany than as legal refugees in Hungary or Romania (a status which includes state aid, as meager as it may be in these countries). The third point is really complicated and it does include discrimination but also a lack of trust and respect for the others from both sides. A lot of it has to do with the difficulties of integrating a very tight-knit nomadic culture into a modern, sedentary society where property rights are clear and respected.
coldtea 10y ago
>China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guantanamo, allows cops to shoot innocent people (e.g. for walking while black) at a record rate (compared to even developing world dictatorship standards) without much repercussions, and let's not get started with people forced to go to jail with BS accusations and plea deals or stuff like "three strikes" that can put people on life for ...stealing a pizza thrice. Just because these people are not all local citizens or white, doesn't mean they are not wronged. And all that's under Obama, so not much hope for those getting better under Trump...
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a productive argument because it tries to deflect attention and normalize the actions in question. Instead, we should be focusing on how to address all of these issues, because they definitely exist.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" I think it's valid to see things its perspective though, because people who say "we shouldn't turn it into 'yes, but X does this too'" are often using it as an excuse to continue to point fingers only towards one side, and not even the worst acting one...
  - alainv 10y ago
    But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.

AsyncAwait 10y ago

I wouldn't judge the whole of Eastern Europe or Asia based on one country, there's plenty of safe and welcoming places in both, E. Europe and Asia.

grey-area 10y ago

I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up till now. This kind of overreach should always be opposed, no matter who it is done to, or where, because once it is acceptable to assassinate people with missiles, kidnap opponents, or record everyone's digital life whenever information crosses the border, all it takes is the wrong sort of people to take power and all the mechanisms are in place to control and oppress entire populations.

nojvek 10y ago
It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years. Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?
- grey-area 10y ago
  I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality. https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts/ https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit... The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  The right response to improvement, is to continue to improve. The world ain't perfect yet.

perch56 10y ago

I see you mentioned Eastern Europe but only include Russia. Eastern Europe includes many other countries open to LGBT communities. Don't always believe the news headlines as they tend to exaggerate. Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.

coldtea 10y ago
>Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity. Really? Try talking to locals there not just about gays but also about refugees or even gypsies...
- oblio 10y ago
  You're mixing up blatant discrimination (the first category) with two very complicated social problems. People aren't necessarily against refugees, per se, but more against the idea of accepting anyone who declares himself to be a refugee, without checking that he is, in fact, one. Things are made worse by a few "refugee" cases where the "refugees" preferred to move away and live as illegal immigrants in Germany than as legal refugees in Hungary or Romania (a status which includes state aid, as meager as it may be in these countries). The third point is really complicated and it does include discrimination but also a lack of trust and respect for the others from both sides. A lot of it has to do with the difficulties of integrating a very tight-knit nomadic culture into a modern, sedentary society where property rights are clear and respected.

coldtea 10y ago

>China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guantanamo, allows cops to shoot innocent people (e.g. for walking while black) at a record rate (compared to even developing world dictatorship standards) without much repercussions, and let's not get started with people forced to go to jail with BS accusations and plea deals or stuff like "three strikes" that can put people on life for ...stealing a pizza thrice. Just because these people are not all local citizens or white, doesn't mean they are not wronged. And all that's under Obama, so not much hope for those getting better under Trump...

dave_sullivan 10y ago
Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a productive argument because it tries to deflect attention and normalize the actions in question. Instead, we should be focusing on how to address all of these issues, because they definitely exist.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" I think it's valid to see things its perspective though, because people who say "we shouldn't turn it into 'yes, but X does this too'" are often using it as an excuse to continue to point fingers only towards one side, and not even the worst acting one...
- alainv 10y ago
  But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.