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Yeah, I pretty much decided to never travel to the US again the first time I heard you may be compelled to unlock your Facebook profile for the customs. Not be

Yeah, I pretty much decided to never travel to the US again the first time I heard you may be compelled to unlock your Facebook profile for the customs. Not because I have something particular to hide, but as a gay person in a hostile world I have learned to care about my privacy. Not a huge loss for me, not a huge loss for the US, but it accumulates.

dave_sullivan 10y ago
I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. [1] http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention-lam-wing-kee/ http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention... [2] http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwLPcBt1qqo http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwL... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladimir-kara-murza-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladi... [4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-death-of-boris-nemtsov http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-de... [5] http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guilty-in-embezzlement-case/a-37453596 http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guil...
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  I wouldn't judge the whole of Eastern Europe or Asia based on one country, there's plenty of safe and welcoming places in both, E. Europe and Asia.
- grey-area 10y ago
  I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up till now. This kind of overreach should always be opposed, no matter who it is done to, or where, because once it is acceptable to assassinate people with missiles, kidnap opponents, or record everyone's digital life whenever information crosses the border, all it takes is the wrong sort of people to take power and all the mechanisms are in place to control and oppress entire populations.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years. Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?
    - grey-area 10y ago
      I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality. https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts/ https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit... The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      The right response to improvement, is to continue to improve. The world ain't perfect yet.
- perch56 10y ago
  I see you mentioned Eastern Europe but only include Russia. Eastern Europe includes many other countries open to LGBT communities. Don't always believe the news headlines as they tend to exaggerate. Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity. Really? Try talking to locals there not just about gays but also about refugees or even gypsies...
    - oblio 10y ago
      You're mixing up blatant discrimination (the first category) with two very complicated social problems. People aren't necessarily against refugees, per se, but more against the idea of accepting anyone who declares himself to be a refugee, without checking that he is, in fact, one. Things are made worse by a few "refugee" cases where the "refugees" preferred to move away and live as illegal immigrants in Germany than as legal refugees in Hungary or Romania (a status which includes state aid, as meager as it may be in these countries). The third point is really complicated and it does include discrimination but also a lack of trust and respect for the others from both sides. A lot of it has to do with the difficulties of integrating a very tight-knit nomadic culture into a modern, sedentary society where property rights are clear and respected.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guantanamo, allows cops to shoot innocent people (e.g. for walking while black) at a record rate (compared to even developing world dictatorship standards) without much repercussions, and let's not get started with people forced to go to jail with BS accusations and plea deals or stuff like "three strikes" that can put people on life for ...stealing a pizza thrice. Just because these people are not all local citizens or white, doesn't mean they are not wronged. And all that's under Obama, so not much hope for those getting better under Trump...
  - dave_sullivan 10y ago
    Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a productive argument because it tries to deflect attention and normalize the actions in question. Instead, we should be focusing on how to address all of these issues, because they definitely exist.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" I think it's valid to see things its perspective though, because people who say "we shouldn't turn it into 'yes, but X does this too'" are often using it as an excuse to continue to point fingers only towards one side, and not even the worst acting one...
    - alainv 10y ago
      But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.
danudey 10y ago
My philosophy is that Facebook provides a window into who I am and what I do, but also who my friends are and what they do. Gaining access to my Facebook account doesn't just tell them about me, it tells them about everyone I know. It lets them harvest the feeds of everyone who's ever friended me and then not stuck me in a 'sees none of my posts' group. Even if I've never posted anything on FB that they'd find objectionable, it's possible someone I know from the US posted privately ('close friends only', for example) "Man I wish someone would put a bullet in Trump's head", feeling as though it was a safe place to vent. Suddenly they're getting investigated by the secret service, and possibly deported, because I gave up my Facebook login because "I have nothing to hide". This is ridiculously insidious. For every one person whose Facebook info they get, they get to collect previously inaccessible data on potentially hundreds of people, none of whom agreed to share their data with the government, or even knew that it was happening. With one Facebook login the government can start building profiles on hundreds of people, and with each successive login that net expands.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  Call me cynical, but I believe that those concerns are totally unfounded because the "evil government" doesn't need your FB login for that, IMHO they most likely can access that information directly without your consent. I would be really surprised if they really had to do this mass harvesting of profiles based on a series of one-time access to individual profiles of a small fraction of population; They had much more effective ways to do mass harvesting many years ago (as illustrated by various leaks) and probably do them now, having to involve thousands of immigration agents would be simply counterproductive. I do believe that immigration services look at your account exclusively for their goals of evaluating immigration. They ask you to unlock your account because for them it's objectively simpler to ask that information from you than to get it from the other government agencies that have that information but won't disclose it because formally they shouldn't have it. There's no "the government", it is an amalgamation of many organizations that have conflicting goals and don't coordinate, so it's reasonable to expect that "the government" has some information and at the same time "the government" (i.e. other parts of it) don't have it and need to request it from you or do without.
Accacin 10y ago
I don't want to be one of those people who go on about the fact that they're not on Facebook, but what if they asked me for my Facebook logins and I told them I don't have any social media accounts? (I mean, bar Github if you count that as a social network).
- Jade_Jet 10y ago
  Same situation for me. I wonder if I'd get treated like a liar and a criminal for not using a commercial product.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  If you are telling the truth you will be fine. But if you do have a facebook account and you lie about it you could be in trouble (it is an offence to lie to federal agents).
  - type0 10y ago
    What would you do if you have an account but haven't used it for many years, lost your access to the email that you registered it with and don't remember the password. Are you genuinely a liar then?
    - angry_octet 10y ago
      If you are telling the truth that you haven't used it in many years then you will be fine -- ultimately. Of course, if you've tweeted/posted from it recently that won't work, and you could end up in detention for lying about it. But on the whole it would be better to take the time to delete that account.
l0b0 10y ago
I applied to an interesting research job for a US university a few years back, but only got to the first interview stage. I was going to try again with much more relevant experience in a couple months, but that's now completely out of the question for the next eight years at least. This is what happens when people stop taking democracy seriously.

dave_sullivan 10y ago

I agree with you. Asia and Eastern Europe are off the list for me too. China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. [1] http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention-lam-wing-kee/ http://time.com/4371283/hong-kong-bookseller-china-detention... [2] http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwLPcBt1qqo http://mashable.com/2016/11/26/zunar-arrested-malaysia/#AHwL... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladimir-kara-murza-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/world/europe/russia-vladi... [4] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-death-of-boris-nemtsov http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-unaccountable-de... [5] http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guilty-in-embezzlement-case/a-37453596 http://www.dw.com/en/russian-court-finds-alexei-navalny-guil...

AsyncAwait 10y ago
I wouldn't judge the whole of Eastern Europe or Asia based on one country, there's plenty of safe and welcoming places in both, E. Europe and Asia.
grey-area 10y ago
I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this and hope I see this trend reversed in my lifetime. But people should be aware that it can happen in a modern society and is already happening in large parts of the world. The US has kidnapped people from Italy, and assassinated its own child citizens. The US (and most western countries) are already close to this, it's just that most citizens felt they were immune up till now. This kind of overreach should always be opposed, no matter who it is done to, or where, because once it is acceptable to assassinate people with missiles, kidnap opponents, or record everyone's digital life whenever information crosses the border, all it takes is the wrong sort of people to take power and all the mechanisms are in place to control and oppress entire populations.
- nojvek 10y ago
  It's amazing that with the forces of globalization and Internet we think of the planet as whole and then a new government flips to us vs them mentality reversing peace work of years. Less humans kill other humans now than ever in the past. I wonder if the media is to blame for the fear mongering?
  - grey-area 10y ago
    I agree, globally many important indicators are positive in the long term but we shouldn't be complacent because perception and relative wealth over time can be more important to people than reality. https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts/ https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit... The recent rise in nationalism after the 2008 crash is eerily similar to post 29. Globalisation has caused discontents, even if they are unjustified and the solutions proposed by demagogues are absurd and damaging, they appeal to some. Re the media, no I don't think so, humans are tribal and not very rational.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    The right response to improvement, is to continue to improve. The world ain't perfect yet.
perch56 10y ago
I see you mentioned Eastern Europe but only include Russia. Eastern Europe includes many other countries open to LGBT communities. Don't always believe the news headlines as they tend to exaggerate. Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Hungary and Romania have done big efforts towards this, still churches have a lot to say but peoples mentality changed, accepting diversity. Really? Try talking to locals there not just about gays but also about refugees or even gypsies...
  - oblio 10y ago
    You're mixing up blatant discrimination (the first category) with two very complicated social problems. People aren't necessarily against refugees, per se, but more against the idea of accepting anyone who declares himself to be a refugee, without checking that he is, in fact, one. Things are made worse by a few "refugee" cases where the "refugees" preferred to move away and live as illegal immigrants in Germany than as legal refugees in Hungary or Romania (a status which includes state aid, as meager as it may be in these countries). The third point is really complicated and it does include discrimination but also a lack of trust and respect for the others from both sides. A lot of it has to do with the difficulties of integrating a very tight-knit nomadic culture into a modern, sedentary society where property rights are clear and respected.
coldtea 10y ago
>China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guantanamo, allows cops to shoot innocent people (e.g. for walking while black) at a record rate (compared to even developing world dictatorship standards) without much repercussions, and let's not get started with people forced to go to jail with BS accusations and plea deals or stuff like "three strikes" that can put people on life for ...stealing a pizza thrice. Just because these people are not all local citizens or white, doesn't mean they are not wronged. And all that's under Obama, so not much hope for those getting better under Trump...
- dave_sullivan 10y ago
  Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a productive argument because it tries to deflect attention and normalize the actions in question. Instead, we should be focusing on how to address all of these issues, because they definitely exist.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" I think it's valid to see things its perspective though, because people who say "we shouldn't turn it into 'yes, but X does this too'" are often using it as an excuse to continue to point fingers only towards one side, and not even the worst acting one...
  - alainv 10y ago
    But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world. Yes, they are all important; no, it is usually not possible to solve them all at once.

danudey 10y ago

My philosophy is that Facebook provides a window into who I am and what I do, but also who my friends are and what they do. Gaining access to my Facebook account doesn't just tell them about me, it tells them about everyone I know. It lets them harvest the feeds of everyone who's ever friended me and then not stuck me in a 'sees none of my posts' group. Even if I've never posted anything on FB that they'd find objectionable, it's possible someone I know from the US posted privately ('close friends only', for example) "Man I wish someone would put a bullet in Trump's head", feeling as though it was a safe place to vent. Suddenly they're getting investigated by the secret service, and possibly deported, because I gave up my Facebook login because "I have nothing to hide". This is ridiculously insidious. For every one person whose Facebook info they get, they get to collect previously inaccessible data on potentially hundreds of people, none of whom agreed to share their data with the government, or even knew that it was happening. With one Facebook login the government can start building profiles on hundreds of people, and with each successive login that net expands.

PeterisP 10y ago
Call me cynical, but I believe that those concerns are totally unfounded because the "evil government" doesn't need your FB login for that, IMHO they most likely can access that information directly without your consent. I would be really surprised if they really had to do this mass harvesting of profiles based on a series of one-time access to individual profiles of a small fraction of population; They had much more effective ways to do mass harvesting many years ago (as illustrated by various leaks) and probably do them now, having to involve thousands of immigration agents would be simply counterproductive. I do believe that immigration services look at your account exclusively for their goals of evaluating immigration. They ask you to unlock your account because for them it's objectively simpler to ask that information from you than to get it from the other government agencies that have that information but won't disclose it because formally they shouldn't have it. There's no "the government", it is an amalgamation of many organizations that have conflicting goals and don't coordinate, so it's reasonable to expect that "the government" has some information and at the same time "the government" (i.e. other parts of it) don't have it and need to request it from you or do without.

Accacin 10y ago

I don't want to be one of those people who go on about the fact that they're not on Facebook, but what if they asked me for my Facebook logins and I told them I don't have any social media accounts? (I mean, bar Github if you count that as a social network).

Jade_Jet 10y ago
Same situation for me. I wonder if I'd get treated like a liar and a criminal for not using a commercial product.
angry_octet 10y ago
If you are telling the truth you will be fine. But if you do have a facebook account and you lie about it you could be in trouble (it is an offence to lie to federal agents).
- type0 10y ago
  What would you do if you have an account but haven't used it for many years, lost your access to the email that you registered it with and don't remember the password. Are you genuinely a liar then?
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    If you are telling the truth that you haven't used it in many years then you will be fine -- ultimately. Of course, if you've tweeted/posted from it recently that won't work, and you could end up in detention for lying about it. But on the whole it would be better to take the time to delete that account.

l0b0 10y ago

I applied to an interesting research job for a US university a few years back, but only got to the first interview stage. I was going to try again with much more relevant experience in a couple months, but that's now completely out of the question for the next eight years at least. This is what happens when people stop taking democracy seriously.