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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?
- denzil_correa 10y ago> The short answer is: your device probably will be seized (or "detained" in CBP parlance), and you might be kept in physical detention—although no one seems to be sure exactly for how long. This is a precarious situation to be in an I'm surprised if this does not violate some provision of the law. Worse, there have been conflicting judgments on similar cases [0, 1]. On a side note, can law itself be unbiased due to the nature of the cases heard in courts? A situation X regarding certain law LX might be heard 1000 times and would be more clear in contrast to a situation Y concerning with law LY as it went to court just 3 times. Can one computationally figure out laws which are unclear based on the number of times they are references in court judgments or some other similar parameters? [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/judge-wont-let-student-challenge-electronics-searches-at-us-border/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/judge-wont-let-s... [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/05/warrantless-airport-search-of-laptop-cannot-be-justified-judge-rules/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/05/warrantless-airp...
- jrochkind1 10y agoNo human activity is 'unbiased'.
- tptacek 10y agoWorth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices confiscated, and then put on a flight out of the country. The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. This is going to get harder still. CBP will begin asking everyone for Facebook logins. You'll think of 10 different ways to conceal your Facebook doings from CBP, but CBP has advance traveler's manifests from flights and will know that people have profiles --- and, sometimes, what was on those profiles.
- voxic11 10y agoYet another reason never to sign up for Facebook.
- rc_bhg 10y agoA fun prank: Create realistic facebook profiles for people you hate, and send links to CBP right before they travel.
- zackbrown 10y ago> A fun prank: Create realistic facebook profiles for people you hate, and send links to CBP right before they travel. During the Chinese cultural revolution in the 1960s, anyone could anonymously post the names of "people they hated" as suspected counter-revolutionaries on public bulletin boards. A "fun prank," maybe, except that many of those reported were executed. [1] This was contemporary with humans traveling into space. We're not out of the woods today—if anything, technology has raised the stakes. [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=AfIydrsE6aMC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=china+cultural+revolution+bulletin+boards+counter-revolutionaries https://books.google.com/books?id=AfIydrsE6aMC&pg=PA163&lpg=...
- egman_ekki 10y agoit is illegal to create a profile for someone else, i.e. to impersonate someone: http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2011/11/fake-facebook-profile-is-id-theft-nj-judge.html http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2011/11/fake-facebook-profi...
- Raphmedia 10y agoYet another reason never to enter the USA.
- Mikeb85 10y agoCanada requires this too. I'm sure other countries do as well.
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- ballenf 10y agoSame result as if you refused to open a securely locked briefcase?
- colanderman 10y agoI know right? Phone lock screens could conceal bombs or invasive species.
- intopieces 10y agoIs it worth it to clear those devices and restore from cloud backup after crossing?
- strmpnk 10y agoThis is exactly what I was thinking too. I have my old phone I wouldn't mind using for travel. I'd just keep that one mostly empty and swap the SIM card when traveling. Alternatively a backup could work as long as you place it somewhere online or hide it well so they can't ask for that to be decrypted at the border as well.
- tptacek 10y agoI think so. But you want to do it in such a way that there's no "restore" button you could push on your phone once you're compelled to log in to any accounts that are clearly associated with the phone. One way to do this would be to back your phone up, encrypt it, and stash the file somewhere else, then scrub the phone and back that up so that you could, if under questioning by CBP, perform a plausible restore.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hollander 10y agoWhat if they ask you for your Google account(s)? Google is social media! Google Plus!?
- DashRattlesnake 10y agoCreate a plausible decoy account. I've literally created dozens of gmail accounts, for other purposes, might as well have one for this.
- tom_mellior 10y agoYou mean if you want to look like you have something to hide? Yeah, that might help...
- transfire 10y agoThe idea that our constitutional rights end at the border is such a travesty, contrary to everything our forefathers fought for, that alone is worthy of renewed revolution.
- sschueller 10y agoThey also end 100 miles in from the border. [1] [1] https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- interfixus 10y agoHappily, to counterbalance that, US jurisdiction is often assumed to cover the farthest reaches of the planet.
- tornadoboy55 10y agoThat's patently false. Good luck enforcing US business law in Norway.
- interfixus 10y agoActually, I have had US business law thrown at me. It didn't stick, of course, but that was much to the throwers surprise, apparently. But then, I'm not in Norway. I'm in Denmark :)
- TallGuyShort 10y agoFunny - we seem to have no problem with drones killing an alarming number of civilians with no declaration of war... I guess that's under patent law?
- jjawssd 10y agoRIAA/MPAA believe otherwise
- jrochkind1 10y agoEven worse when you consider what percentage of the US population lives within 100 miles of the border, which is where the 4th amendment apparently does not apply -- about 2/3rds of the US population! https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone It is indeed unacceptable.
- ronnier 10y ago> 4,444 cellphones and 320 other electronic devices were inspected in 2015 And recently I'm hearing about this -- it largely went ignored during the previous administration but now it's a major concern, articles on HN, my Facebook feed, Reddit, ...
- bryanlarsen 10y agoThe ACLU was fighting this under Obama, and some of the many millions of dollars they gathered from Trump opponents will be used to fight this and other causes under POTUS 46.
- ronnier 10y agoGood. We should care about this regardless if we like the administration or not.
- joosteto 10y agoMany stories on HN, for example: 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11984609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11984609 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6309618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6309618
- jrochkind1 10y agoI had read about it on HN multiple times during the Obama administration too. As well as heard about it from the ACLU and EFF, as well as other places. A HN post from 2014, with 258 upvotes, linking to an ACLU notice from 2014. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6993995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6993995 That's just the first HN post I found, there were multiple other front-page HN posts over the past few years. An EFF alert from 2013: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/unjustified-detention-david-miranda-points-larger-problem-suspicionless-border https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/unjustified-detention-... A Mother Jones article from 2014: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/how-fourth-amendment-not-protect http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/how-fourth-amend... The Committee to Protect Journalists in 2014: https://cpj.org/blog/2014/10/for-journalists-coming-into-us-policies-that-borde.php https://cpj.org/blog/2014/10/for-journalists-coming-into-us-... If you're trying to make the point that there are _some_ people that are Democratic Party partisans and ignore civil and human rights violations from Democrats -- yes, there are, I agree, and it can be infuriating. But it's not everyone, it's not the ACLU, it's not the EFF, and it's not even representative of what stories got posted to and upvoted on HN during the Obama administration. Many of us have been paying attention to this issue unhappily for years. I am hoping the upsurge in resistance to Trump means that more people have been activated to oppose much the same things when a future Democratic or "more reasonable" Republican administration tries them too.
- no1youknowz 10y agoOne thing I have thought about. I have dozens of profiles which are just test accounts for social media, to hook up to applications I've been building. I've been thinking recently to just close all the accounts, including email. This will leave me in a state where I have pretty much no social accounts, just 1 email account which is used for friends/family. Are there any cases of individuals giving up their phone and it being a wasteland of information? I personally do not use facebook, google-plus, twitter, linkedin or anything else. I literally do not have an opinion, nor do I care to share it! Edit: Do they also check when email accounts have been created? How could they know, unless they checked in with the provider? I'm thinking of closing my main account, requesting data be deleted and starting afresh!
- drvdevd 10y agoI've wondered the same. What if you just opt out of 90% of everything? What are the implications of not using social media?
- sverige 10y agoI don't have any social media accounts. Last year I crossed the border for the first time in 20 years (to Canada and back) and wasn't asked for anything. It might be the case that having no online presence reduces your chances of being flagged. Fewer obvious associations, fewer chances for "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" to occur, less chance of some algorithm picking you out of the crowd. There were some scare pieces a few years ago that somehow not having social media accounts would make one suspect when going to apply for another job, since background checks wouldn't reveal any online presence and that must mean that you're socially defective somehow. It seems like it was probably just a way to goad stragglers into adoption. The upside of not using social media is better relationships and better mental health.
- tomtang0514 10y agoNothing really. I don't have twitter, my linkedin is just like my online profile page, i haven't log on to facebook for years. The most "social" apps on my phone are probably yelp, google map and email. Honest I don't feel anything different.
- mpcsh 10y agoHere's what I want to know: what happens if I just spike my phone on the ground?
- technologyvault 10y agoThere are probably thousands of instances similar to this (not necessarily having to hand over your device) where US citizens are at the mercy of law enforcement simply because we don't know what are rights are, and because often law enforcement either doesn't know or doesn't care. Civil rights often tend to be only as useful as our knowledge of what exactly they are.
- biscuitsandbbq 10y agoThis happened to me crossing into Canada and to be honest I really wasn't expecting it. I had tons of very private pictures and messages on there stretching back years. I really didn't want to turn over my password so that 3 border agents could look through all that stuff in some back room, but at the same time I knew there wasn't anything illegal on there. Anyway, I was with my partner and didn't want to ruin her vacation as well so we just turned over our passwords (under threat of detention if we didn't). In any case, if you find yourself in this unfortunate situation (you shouldn't - you should travel with an empty phone when crossing the border, or at least wipe it before crossing then do a restore over icloud later), here's something you can do: Before going in (if you have an iphone), make sure you have a strong alphanumeric passcode. Enable auto-wipe on 10 incorrect passcode attempts. Then, turn the phone off. If CBP then asks to turn your phone on and wants your password, appear eager to comply, but give them an incorrect one, and when that doesn't work, admit that you had just changed it a few days ago to something more secure and that you may have forgotten it, but don't worry, you always just use the thumbprint to unlock the phone anyway and volunteer to open it that way. Always appears helpful. The phone still won't unlock because iphone requires passcode entry after restart. If they ask why you turned the phone off, just say that's what you normally do when entering border control. Unless you're under some kind of serious suspicion of some kind at this time, they're unlikely to detain you for forgetting your phone password, and even if so, it's locked with a strong passcode so there's no much they can do anyway.
- ashark 10y agoOr instead of going through a bunch of effort in order to risk pissing off border agents with shenanigans, you can buy a dirt-cheap Android phone for travel. Bonus: then you don't have to worry about it being stolen, lost, or broken, either. It'd be a sensible move even without the border search risk. Incidentally, is this limited to phones? Are they only searching these accounts because they're authed to the phone they make you unlock? Or are they saying "oh, OK, so you're traveling without a phone. Please step over to this kiosk and log into your Facebook account" as well?
- jrochkind1 10y ago
- rsync 10y agoIf your border crossing strategy involves a wiped/clean/factorydefaults device, always, always, always put a zip bomb[1] in place. Name it something helpful like "do_not_open_this_file.zip". They can't say you didn't warn them ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_bomb
- roywiggins 10y agoAnd then get held for hours just to spite you? That doesn't seem worth it to me.
- zenlikethat 10y agoIf the device is wiped anyway, why the zip bomb? Just to be rude?
- purple-again 10y agoYou might think that's funny but the authority has plenty of power to fuck with you at their discretion. You just gave them probable cause to hold you for 24 hours by destroying potentially terrorist documents. Not quite 'dead right' level but certainly 'dumb right'.
- xtf 10y agoThis means I have to install a blank Custom ROM before I travel to the land of the free™
- manishsharan 10y agoMaybe its for the best. This gives me a reason to buy a Nokia 3310 or its new version http://venturebeat.com/2017/02/13/hmd-global-will-launch-the-nokia-3-5-and-6-at-mwc-plus-a-3310-homage/ http://venturebeat.com/2017/02/13/hmd-global-will-launch-the...
- youdontknowtho 10y agoUS Customs will sing you a song called "Punch you in the face." It's a classic.
- youdontknowtho 10y agoThis was comedy gold and you know it.
- ipsin 10y agoAre visitors being turned away because they can't provide passwords for social media accounts? Using a local password safe (KeePass2, etc.) should be a great excuse, but I'm not sure what happens next. It bothers me that the US is providing a terrible example of how to treat visitors.
- crispyambulance 10y agoIf some CBP knuckle-dragger wants me to unlock my phone so he can browse through it looking for whatever as I stand there watching while asking me insipid questions, that's not a huge deal. The real problem here is downloading of data from the phone. Once that data is off-loaded, the government can make it a part of their "Seven-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon-Osama-Bin-Laden edition" game, stored forever, perpetually looking for "connections" no matter how remote. That's a scary and slippery slope to surveillance state hell. I don't think such practices are commonplace, not yet? Has anyone here ever been in a situation where the CBP confiscated their phone/laptop or downloaded data electronically from it?
- biscuitsandbbq 10y agoI was crossing into Canada and 3 agents demanded my phone and password (as well as my SO) under threat of detention. They took the phones in the back for 45 minutes before they came out. Asked questions about a conversation I had about marijuana with a friend months ago, basically accusing me of being a drug dealer when even in the most wild reading of that conversation, that cannot possibly be the case. Anyway, who knows what happened in that 45 minutes, probably our data is still sitting deep in some Canadian government server somewhere.
- ashark 10y agoCheap Android phone. Temporary, cheap SIM (or none—you can get one where you're going) with a different number from your real one. Only way to go. Bonus that it's 100% reasonable to do this because you don't want to risk having your main phone stolen/lost, too, so it's not even a weird (suspicious) thing to do.
- emptybits 10y agoEventually, this might be seen as non-suspicious. Maybe. I hope so. It's quite prudent. BUT for now it's also something only a very, very small percentage of the population would consider doing and then actually do. Border agents would know this, empirically. So if you're doing something that's highly unusual for the general population then you are, unfortunately, doing something weird and suspicious. TL;DR: it doesn't matter that it's reasonable; it's still fringe and, sadly therefore, suspicious
- bflesch 10y agoIn a world where thousands of people annually travel to some "freedom fighter" camps in order to get combat training, I very much agree that it is necessary to intensively screen travelers who return to their country of origin once they fit a certain heuristic. As one single returnee who is not caught might actually cause dozens or hundreds of citizen deaths, there shouldn't be a screening exception for smartphones or computers. We can all argue that the current heuristics / profiling methods are not good enough, but as an EU citizen I'd be glad if my government would actually be as straightforward about screening travellers as USCBP is. If travelers - citizens or not - want to return after learning to kill or taking part in some sort of criminal activities, or even announcing their support for such criminal activities in social media, they should be held accountable for their actions upon returning by strict border controls.
- mikeash 10y agoWhy limit it to international travel? People can learn how to kill without leaving the country. We need random checkpoints set up on major highways (and occasionally on minor roads, just to ensure you can't reliably bypass them) to stop and search people to ensure they aren't up to anything nefarious. Actually, it needs to go ever further. You can get up to a lot of trouble without even leaving your home. The police should conduct random searches of people's dwellings in order to combat this. A lot of bad stuff is handled online, so of course we also need to search people's online activity as it happens. Since encryption gets in the way of this, we need to outlaw it, or at least mandate key escrow so the security services can observe the traffic.
- bflesch 10y agoI think this type of argument only comes from egocentric people. Nobody cares about what you are doing, and you will most likely not be screened. If you are arguing online about civil rights you are not exactly the type of person they are trying to catch at the border. In my country of origin there is no way to train with military weapons. People travel to other places and learn it there, all while being indoctrinated to perform acts of terrorism. When IT-driven heuristics determine that you fit that profile, society is better off when you are intensively screened and searched upon reentry.
- lb1lf 10y agoQuestion: what would happen if you are asked to unlock your device and you refuse on the grounds that it contains classified material? Presumably they wouldn't just shrug and say 'OK, then' - but neither could they (if the classifying authority was one they cared about - say, NATO) just say 'Tough luck, now unlock it!', right?
- mikeash 10y agoIt seems like that would only work if you actually have the appropriate security clearance. And they're probably OK with letting people with clearances get through with less screening.
- lb1lf 10y ago-You'd obviously need to be able to provide proof of your clearance* (though I suppose your passport and a database lookup would do) - but I wonder what would be the next step then; getting hold of an official with the required clearance to match the documents in your laptop? (Which, in the case of higher/compartmentalised clearances may not even be possible) At some point you just need to start trusting people. *) I wouldn't recommend leaving docs leaked by Ed Snowden on the laptop just to be able to rightfully claim there's classified material on it...
- atlbeer 10y agoTough luck: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/13/us/citizen-nasa-engineer-detained-at-border-trnd/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/13/us/citizen-nasa-engineer-d...
- dingaling 10y agoIf you do have classified material about which the USA has an interest in protecting you'll probably be on a G-* or NATO visa. Rather different entry experience.
- panzagl 10y agoYou would need appropriate credentials and material/systems would have to be marked appropriately. I would think saying 'phone contains classified material' and then not having documentation really just gives them probable cause to get really nasty.
- danbruc 10y agoHow is this not in violation of international law, especially the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [1] article 17, which would apply to US citizens as well as non-US citizens? No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation. Maybe even article 9 if the law does not clearly establish what is allowable. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law. EDIT: Turns out the US did not really ratify this treaty. [2] So no human rights in the US, or at least not all of them enforceable in court. There may of course be similar rights from other laws or treaties. [1] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civi...
- bflesch 10y agoIf software identifies you as potential criminal or terrorist at the border, the following search is not "arbitrary" by any means. The state should not be transparent about the exact reasons why you were chosen (e.g. the social media post or phone call), apart from pointing out the law based on which they are acting.
- danbruc 10y agoOnly if the software or procedures do a reasonable job at selecting people. It is hard to tell from the outside whether this is the case but the cases that became publicly known at least suggest that the system is not flawless and also seems to pick people with opinions or doing things the US disapproves but which are not illegal. How much information must be provided is certainly debatable. Article 9 continues as follows. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him. So what are reasons? You are in violation of US law? You are in violation of US law X? You are in violation of US law X because you did Y? You are in violation of US law X because you did Y and we know because of Z? How much reason is enough reason? Actually, if you are only detained for some time, then there re probably no charges. Unfortunately my understanding of law has a lot to be desired. How much inference is allowed without charges? And thinking about it again, nobody, as far as I can tell, heavily complains about your bags getting searched, for security or customs. So it seems indeed more of a matter of degree what kind of search is acceptable. On the other hand getting your bags searched is about imminent dangers and crimes, downing the airplane, smuggling illegal things, evading taxes. Inspecting your digital life seems hard to justify from that perspective unless you think people are regularly posting on Facebook that they are about to cross the border with a bag full of drugs hidden so well that they can not be found.
- bogomipz 10y ago>"Ars spoke with several legal experts, and contacted CBP itself (which did not provide anything beyond previously-published policies)." In other words the CBP were completely unhelpful and simply referred them to published legalese online rather than clarifying that legalese. It really feels like the culture of DHS and CBP views the people they are supposed to serving as adversaries.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jdalgetty 10y agoI don't understand America's fascination with snooping through peoples shit.
- turc1656 10y agoNeither do most Americans. It's the authoritarians in charge of this shit show that have the fascination.
- kraftz 10y agoBut why people let them do it?
- shostack 10y agoBecause our political system has been taken over by entrenched authoritarian conservatives who have rigged the game such that it is very hard to remove them. That combined with the fact that the majority of Americans are struggling these days financially, and you have a situation where people care, but they care more about putting food on their table for their family and keeping a roof over their heads, so that stays at the top of their priority list and they don't have time to be active enough to do something about this.
- erklik 10y agoYet they vote for those exact authoritarians. Quite fascinating actually.
- cousin_it 10y agoWhen you arrive at the border, it might be too late to get privacy-conscious and refuse to unlock your stuff. Unless you're using non-American devices and social media, your data probably gets inspected anyway when you apply for a visa, and might be monitored at other times as well.
- bflesch 10y agoIt empowers the border agent to assess risk of a traveller right on the spot without consulting other agencies or even getting read access to those types of databases.
- z5h 10y agoI don't know any of my passwords except for my password manager. If I leave my password DB at home, and mail a physical copy to my destination, what can happen? I'll be absolutely unable to access any account.
- bflesch 10y agoThen you shouldn't expect to be let into any country. Take the flight back and return when you can actually unlock your phone.
- z5h 10y agoThis might actually be the preferred choice for some people who wish to attempt travel, but are unwilling to sacrifice personal private.
- bflesch 10y agoAnd? The target country doesn't lose anything through this if some entitled internet privacy advocates without big business stop travelling to it. Everyone who is serious about coming actually handles immigration/border tax like an adult. Nobody cares about your private life unless you are trying to affect others negatively.
- z5h 10y agoWrong: The target country loses money. Wrong: Everyone who is serious about travelling can make their own choices about tradeoffs. That's what being an adult is all about. Correction: "Nobody cares about your private life unless you are trying to affect others negatively, OR if they can use that information for personal gains, even if at a loss to you." I'm done fixing your mistakes. Cheers.
- bflesch 10y ago"some people who wish to attempt travel, but are unwilling to sacrifice personal private." If people value their privacy higher than the economic benefit from their travels, the economic impact of them not proceeding is most likely minimal. The state and its agents don't use information for personal gains, their job and passion concerns society as a whole, and they want to make sure that no bad guys come in.
- yawz 10y agoThe question I have in mind is "do they have the right to confiscate your device or to disappear with it?". What if I told them "I'm going to unlock it, but I'm the driver. Ask me all that you want to see, and I'll take you to that app?".
- pjc50 10y agoWhat if they told you "we're going to detain you until you do what we want?"
- throwaway76543 10y agoIf you're a citizen they cannot. A citizen cannot be refused entry. They can keep your stuff, however. And if you're merely a permanent resident you can be refused entry.
- ipsin 10y agoAccounts I've read of this, no you do not get to drive, at all. They will take it into a back room, do things you won't get to see, and you may get it back when they're done with you, or they may keep it (example: [1]). If you're a security researcher, or property paranoid, you can then dispose of the device in some way, because you have no idea what they did to it, the device firmware, baseband, etc. Probably nothing, right? But the time and effort it'd take to vet it all is prohibitive. [1] https://www.cnet.com/news/researcher-detained-at-u-s-border-questioned-about-wikileaks/ https://www.cnet.com/news/researcher-detained-at-u-s-border-...
- mnw21cam 10y agoAnd do you get to claim compensation for the equipment that is now untrustworthy and you therefore need to replace?
- thatcat 10y agoThey would probably take your device and copy entire contents via usb, search with software for select phrases not scroll through your timelines individually. They're not going to consider you scrolling around and not giving up password as an adequate search.
- twtw99 10y agoWas wondering what happens if they find posts on social media criticizing the current administration? Trump often used to highlight the fact that the thousands of CBP agents has supported/endorsed him.
- pyrale 10y agoThe simple way to avoid this for me, is to skip avoidable US trips for now. I would have loved to attend strangeloop, but I will wait for better opportunities. If my work requires me to travel there, I will simply ask to have electronic material provided in the US, and download whatever tools I need once inside the US. I would advise anyone traveling to have versioned working tools stored online anyhow.
- megous 10y agoHaha. Terrorism bla bla. Anyone noticed that the first two example cases are actually political activists being targeted. - the first is some Chelsea Manning advocate - the second is some pot legalization activist There you have it for what actually are these rarely used rules used for.
- Shivetya 10y agoI would not go that far. What is points out is that the database being used is lumping all people of interest together regardless of their level of threat or type. Lazy or nefarious, who knows. More than likely those who created the system never would have guess how easily people would get on it.
- mariocesar 10y agoCan you just send your phone or laptop through fedex, or some other post service, and just don't travel with anything with a password. Even better, do a cloud backup and wipe out your phone or laptop, and restore a backup when you are out? Or am I missing something?
- civilrightsyep 10y agoThese discussions tend to focus on all the inane ways to subvert the border guards. The real question we should be asking is how to make this a big enough issue that it gets mainstream attention and action. We shouldn't try to figure out how to continue down the fascist path but how to change it's direction.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y agoI agree that fighting fascism is a bigger overall concern, but I think there's a time for these practical concerns as well. Especially given that it most affects non-US citizens, who may or may not be able to have an impact on the larger issue.
- gkfasdfasdf 10y agoThey can detain you or your device even if you do unlock it. So better just not to unlock it.
- analogmemory 10y agoThis article [1] suggested to reset your phone to a blank slate before you hit customs and then reinstall after you're in. Not sure if that's going to help but I like the idea of the subtle middle finger. [1] https://medium.freecodecamp.com/ill-never-bring-my-phone-on-an-international-flight-again-neither-should-you-e9289cde0e5f#.95ur1eihh https://medium.freecodecamp.com/ill-never-bring-my-phone-on-...
- tzs 10y agoWhat happens if you try to mail or ship a smartphone across the border, as opposed to carry it with you when you are crossing the border? I'm wondering if you could ship your regular phone ahead, and use a burner while you are traveling. If that works, that could be an interesting business opportunity. Set up a series of phone exchange stations near major airports, where outgoing travelers can swap their smartphone for a burner. You ship the smartphone to your station near their destination, and when they arrive they can turn in the burner and retrieve their smartphone. You could also add in a temporary backup/restore service for laptops. A traveller could bring their laptop to your station when they are preparing to leave, and you do a backup of all user data and then delete it from the laptop. While they are in transit, you send the data to your exchange station nearest their destination. When the traveller brings their laptop in, the user data gets restored.
- hughes 10y agoCreating a business with the purpose of circumventing border control is unlikely to be appreciated or permitted by authorities in any country. Probably better off just leaving your smartphone at home and buying a device at your destination.
- donald123 10y agoThe purpose of the business will be transferring people's digital devices securely, NOT circumventing border control. But I think any company does this as their main business would get on the CBP's hot list.
- cosmotron 10y agoThing in transit are not invulnerable to tampering; see the story of NSA intercepting Cisco networking hardware and implanting beacons. [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factory-show-cisco-router-getting-implant/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...
- sandworm101 10y agoIve got a trick. As a lawyer i keep a note on my laptop deacribing how it is encrypted (linux, home dirctories + trucrypt archives for important stuff) and that content is subject to attorney-client privacy rules. Ive been asked to unlock several times. I say "sure thing, but ill need some sort of court order so i dont get sued." Faced with a reasonable person willing to unlock, they have never pushed the matter. For my phone, phones cannot be trusted. Dont do anything you want to keep private on a phone. Buy a netbook. I would suggest saying something like "sure thing, but i use this device to talk to my lawyer and i should ask him first if it is ok." They wont want the hassle of dealing with this perfectly reasonable request. (Don't fib. Have a lawyer first. All you need to do is email one a couple times for that statement to he true.)
- mahyarm 10y agoDoes that only work if your a US citizen? If your not then bye bye visa?
- sandworm101 10y agoCanadian, so no visa req for visits. Special temp visa for lawyer work, issued at boarder crossing. They dont get mad. The trick is to be reasonable. They know it will be difficult to get an order/warrant to search a lawyer's machine. Lawyer-client confidentiality is one of the few things that trumps even terrorism.
- mahyarm 10y agoWell, you have a status that could go away if the CBP officer gets grumpy. At least you don't have a living in the USA to protect. As a client although, is that ok? Also this guy worked for NASA, and knowing many big corps that kind of policy would apply in some indirect way with work devices. But it didn't seem to matter for him.
- sandworm101 10y agoNasa isnt a law firm. Lawyer communications are treated by different rules, rules above things like classifications.
- athenot 10y agoHave there been any incidences of people who signed up for CBP's Global Entry program having trouble? Many of the complaints here are a (justified) fear that privacy invasion occurs as a side-effect of a clumsy and poorly thought-out attempt to prevent something illegal[1]. So if I go ahead and sign up for the background check + interiew to let them see I don't have ill intentions, would this reduce the likelyhood of collateral privacy invasion when actually crossing the border? I've been considering this for convenience reasons but am curious if it might help in this instance. Note: [1]: There is also the issue of restricting freedom and declaring people "illegal" when that runs against the spirit of this country, but I'm not focusing on that here.
- iak8god 10y ago> Have there been any incidences of people who signed up for CBP's Global Entry program having trouble? Yes. The ArsTechnica article we're discussing here fails to mention it, but Sidd Bikkannavar is enrolled in Global Entry: "Seemingly, Bikkannavar’s reentry into the country should not have raised any flags. Not only is he a natural-born US citizen, but he’s also enrolled in Global Entry — a program through CBP that allows individuals who have undergone background checks to have expedited entry into the country. He hasn’t visited the countries listed in the immigration ban and he has worked at JPL — a major center at a US federal agency — for 10 years." - http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-bikkannavar-detained-cbp-phone-search-trump-travel-ban http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-bikkann...
- athenot 10y agoGood catch. Thanks!
- turc1656 10y agoThis practice should be banned on the premise that any digital data that could enter the country physically on that device could just as easily cross the border and enter on any internet connection. Searching the device does nothing to prevent anything from entering the country, which is the primary role of the CBP agents - to control the flow of people and physical items. Not data. If the CBP then claims that it's a useful tool/practice because they can identify bad people who shouldn't be allowed in, they should be asked to provide stats on how many people were denied entrance after their devices were checked. My guess is that number is statistically meaningless, probably in the <1% range for people who actually unlock a device. One of the only exceptions I can think of is cases like this one: http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-laptop-child-pornography-and-border.html http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-laptop-child-porn... where there is already a legitimate investigation going on and a person is suspected of serious criminal activity and they don't have enough for a warrant. In these cases, the CBP uses the rules regarding border re-entry to their favor to compel a search of a device because they have at least some sort of reasonable suspicion that a device may contain data for which the mere possession of is highly illegal. Other than that, I'm hard-pressed to think of any cases where the mere possession of data would be a felony unless they suspect you of having classified information without the appropriate clearance.
- venomsnake 10y agoWe barely stopped the last mostly male refugee wave at Vienna. For you islam may be just a religion but for EE it is dervishme, being second tier humans and the reason the renesaince in Eastern europe started 500 years later. If the refugees were vulnerable it is possible. But the majority of them are male. And some of them are draft doggers. If the Ukrainians start to run from Russia the reception will quite different - case in point - the armenias during the genocide.
- shitgoose 10y agonot to nitpick, but so far Ukrainians have been running from Ukraine to Russia - 2.6 mil since 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia)
- mamon 10y agoAre you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority.
- coldtea 10y ago>Are you sure those are actual Ukrainians, and not just ethnical Russians with Ukrainian citizenship? Ans who said those aren't actual Ukrainians? Ukraine has been multi-ethnic for centuries... >Eastern Ukraine has a huge Russian minority. And has had for centuries, but it's seldom mentioned in stories about "Russia invading Crimea". It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population of US ethnicity, Mexico's government was toppled to bring a coalition of anti-US parties in power (including actual neo-nazis, swastikas and all), and the US getting in Baja California to protect their citizens and their national interests and been called for it (not to mention that its somehow forgiven to do worse in Iraq and elsewhere, with actual deadly invasions, but Russia is called for intervening next to its borders and with Russian ethnicity population living there).
- pvg 10y ago
- jacamat 10y agoReset to factory then unlock...
- pfarnsworth 10y agoCan they ask me to turn over my gmail username and password, even though I don't have a phone or computer on me?
- SadWebDeveloper 10y agoPersonally i like to travel with a burn phone that only has the contacts i need in case something happens to me and dont bring laptop because m usually not traveling internationally for work.
- danaliv 10y agoSo worst case I'm out a thousand bucks and one phone? Sounds like it's worth the trouble.
- dandare 10y agoWhat if I simply reset my Android phone to factory settings just before exiting the plane? Can they force me to log in to my Android account in order to get to my FB? And what if my battery is dead or my phone stops working? Can they force me to log in to their own Android phone? What if I don't carry any phone at all, can they simply force me to log in to an empty phone? (Assuming everyone has an Android or Apple phone or is going to spend couple days in detention.)
- KeytarHero 10y agoWhat if I have my phone set to wipe itself after 10 incorrect login attempts, and I "accidentally" get my password wrong 10 times while trying to unlock it for them?
- infinite8s 10y agoAre you willing to be blacklisted from entering the US for 10 years and sent back (assuming you aren't a US citizen). If you are, they might just detain you a while.
- kutkloon7 10y agoWell, at 4444 times a year it doesn't seem that rare of an occurrence. But, hey, what's new? The US has imprisoned innocent people, and tortured them multiple times a day for years and years. This is public information, and no one gives a shit. The US government really doesn't care about anyone who is not a US citizen. (And sadly, western countries mostly just let the US do whatever they want) A women is being locked up for 8 years because she checked the wrong box on her voting form, and it is pretty common that unarmed black people get shot by cops without serious consequences. I understand that people are upset about the possibility of having to unlock their phones, but there are far more serious indications that the US is not the great country it wants be. A lot of common sense and decency it missing in the US - and not just in the Trump administration.
- askvictor 10y agoAre there any Android distributions that can boot to a different environment depending on what code is entered at boot time? And said partitions are hidden from each other (i.e. once booted, the other partition is impossible to detect)? This was described in Cory Doctorow's "Little Brother" novel, and on the face of it seems like a reasonable proposition - any major flaws in such a plan?
- nyxtom 10y agoWorth noting that the DHS has the authority to take your device, copy the contents, and share any information they found on a case-by-case basis. It seems likely that the standard practice will be to simply copy the content wholesale and use it for importing into a system for analysis/flagging/later sharing and completing the network identity. Effectively, handing over your phone completes the picture in terms of network analysis. They have your facial/physical identity, all your communications, your photos, downloads...etc. This seems to also apply to laptops as well and it's likely that they can also just copy all that over as well without discretion. Make no mistake, the authority is far-reaching and completely unchecked. https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_pia_cbp_laptop.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_pia_cbp_... " While CBP Officers are responsible for the examination of electronic devices, only Supervisors may authorize the copying of the contents of an electronic device.54 Where an electronic device is to be detained or seized by CBP, a CBP Supervisor must approve of the detention or seizure, and the CBP Officer must provide a completed CF 6051D or S, respectively, to the traveler.55 Where a traveler claims that the contents of the electronic device contain attorney-client or other privileged material, the CBP Officer must consult with the local Associate/Assistant Chief Counsel or United States Attorney’s Office before conducting the examination.56 CBP Supervisors may authorize the sharing of the traveler’s information for assistance or other law enforcement purpose on a case-by-case basis "
- nyxtom 10y agoThis part is deeply troubling: "ICE has various safeguards in place to protect electronic devices that are detained or seized, or information from a device that is detained during a border search. ICE stores all electronic devices, or information thereof, in locked cabinets and rooms and maintains a chain of custody using appropriate ICE forms and systems. If a copy of information is made from the electronic device to allow the traveler to leave the port of entry with his device, the first copy is known as the “gold copy.” The chain of custody stays with the original or gold copy so that it may be used as evidence in court, if necessary. A new chain of custody form is issued to follow any additional copy of the data that is made; such forms are tracked by ICE Special Agents in the appropriate ICE systems. By policy, ICE’s review of detained information is to be completed in a reasonable time and, if the original device has been detained by ICE, the ICE Special Agent must provide a chain of custody form to the traveler as a receipt. Special Agents must factor in the time necessary for any assistance that may be required when determining “reasonable time.” Once the border search is completed, the detained device will either be seized or returned to the traveler and any copy of the data from the device will be retained for law enforcement purposes and in accordance with the established retention periods for any system of records in which it is stored or destroyed "
- ed_blackburn 10y agoMy wife and I have cancelled a proposed trip to NYC this summer. The States just seems so dark, unwelcoming and aggressive that for a short break it hardly seems worth it.