5 ms·

“Proof” that Fuchsia will replace Linux for Google

66 points by techenthusiast 10y ago

relics443 10y ago
I find it hard to believe that 8+ years of APIs and OS level code would be abandoned just like that, especially given the scale of Android. If this ever happens, it would probably be an extremely slow, well thought out (hopefully), well documented (also hopefully) rollout.
- techenthusiast 10y ago
  That's what I'm saying :) An (extremely) gradual phase-out of the Android API.
  - relics443 10y ago
    I'm not sure the API can ever really be phased out due to the vast amount of legacy apps and libraries. Besides I'm sure a lot of developers wouldn't be happy that their domain knowledge just went flying through the window. Even if that is a risk inherent in the job.
    - techenthusiast 10y ago
      Extremely, extremely? :) Apple kept Carbon apps running on OS X for a very long time.
- therealmarv 10y ago
  Exactly. This sort of switch seems for me also a good way to increase the amount of bugs by a large scale. It may only work for very specific hardware I think.
  - BrailleHunting 10y ago
    Job security and Apple-ish custom OS may long-term reduce support burden because Linux is like OpenSSL: a giant refrigerator, stove, oven, typewriter, glass kiln, laundromat kitchen-sink. It will take a very long time to reinvent the wheel and also deliver a PG "quantum of improvement," but there are plenty of Alphabet employees to do it. Also, similar Apple, it's an OS they control so there's less rejection / ignorning of Google's desired direction as with FLOSS.
    - pawadu 10y ago
      You grossly overestimate Googles ability to support an OS on multiple platforms. Do you remember the why Samsung Galaxy Nexus was abandoned? Apple supports iOS on two platforms (32-bit and 64-bit A-series). Microsoft who has been in the OS business much longer than than Google only have resources to support Windows 10 Mobile on a handful of carefully chosen Qualcomm chips. So basically the only way this could work is if Google would create their own SoC and mandate Android vendors to only use that SoC. I don't think Samsung would like that too much.
      - BrailleHunting 10y ago
        That's a given. Google also needs to control the hw platform to be successful. Open platform equals shoddy service/product because it would require adding a Microsoft-sized operation.
        pawadu 10y ago
        Allow me to disagree. Open platform works great when people collaborate. Google has not collaborated with the Linux community.
- cpeterso 10y ago
  I agree. Why throw out the whole stack: kernel, APIs, and applications? OTOH, why is Google developing the Fuchsia? It is clearly more than a hobby project.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  They've already replaced Dalvik with ART for bytecode and it was mostly transparent from what I understood. But popping up with a completely new platform API without any backwards compatibility would be very bold and risky. There would have to be a good compatibility story there. Also there is talk in the article about a POSIX layer. Now that's easier said than done. But it is Google we are talking about so they certainly have the manpower and resources to try.
  - loeg 10y ago
    It isn't too hard to do Linux ABI emulation. The interface there has mostly been stable for the last several years. That would enable just using the same userspace as Linux distributions like Android.
  - relics443 10y ago
    A new runtime is very different then a new framework/API/OS. The former doesn't necessarily require code changes (dalvik -> ART did not), the latter requires new everything.
    - techenthusiast 10y ago
      The Android API wouldn't be going anywhere. That's what I say in the article - Fuchsia would continue to support the Android API seamlessly.
  - Aissen 10y ago
    They did not. ART is here on-device architecture-specific and version-specific; Dalvik bytecode is still the portable bytecode used in all APKs. If they had replaced it, we wouldn't still be dealing with the 65k methods limit for example.
- techenthusiast 10y ago
  You wouldn't have to do it all at once. You'd emulate the Linux user space, and do everything incredibly gradually. Both APIs would be supported for many, many years. But they could stop advancing the Android API within a shorter timeframe.
arca_vorago 10y ago
I thought google would do something like this. They didn't want to fully embrace linux so they locked all the freedom of linux away behind restrictrions in android until they had a replacement and now they are going to try to drop gnu+linux anything GPL they can... The new kernel is MIT/BSD... Welcome to Tivoization all over again. I get the need for a better kernel, the gnu+linux kernel is out of control at over 14mil+loc, but why not put that effort into making a minix3 style microkernel that's gpl, or fix hurd? I wish people understood the dangers of BSD style licenses, I hope this fails, the last thing we need is another proprietary OS on a device they built on the backs of the FOSS community but doesn't give back in a meaningful way. We don't need another OSX, or android apps on your PC, we need someone with the money and will to fix the future of GNU!
- caf 10y ago
  I would wager that the majority of those sloc are not compiled into the typical Android kernel, though.
  - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
    Right. And we have tools like git which are able to handle large codebases. People shouldn't conflate high LoC counts with bloat.
- geofft 10y ago
  Even if someone with the money and will somehow wanted to sponsor the development of GNU, why would that fix it? The same story will just play out again. If you want this fixed, get someone with the money and the will to end the copyrightability of software. Or find a different solution to let users have control over their computing even when they don't have control over the OS - there's no fundamental reason why this should require legal solutions, as opposed to, say, cryptographic ones.
- jsmeaton 10y ago
  I don't understand the dangers of BSD style licenses, can you expand on that a bit please?
supremesaboteur 10y ago
Will it be lightweight ? Will it have a shell ? Will it be customizable ? Will it have loads of third party applications ? Will it support non-Google hardware ? Will it finally bring serious OS innovation to the consumer desktop market ? Here is to hoping yes!
RubenSandwich 10y ago
I'm sorry but his "proof" is mostly just puns. Sometimes OSS projects are given pun names simply for laughs, not because of some deeper meaning. No doubt Google is researching new OSs, View Managers and development frameworks. (Every company that large does.) But I think it's too early to call it a potential successor; architecture takes a long time to change.
- techenthusiast 10y ago
  https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchrismckillop%2Fstatus%2F765438910658772992%3Al4L8Nx5RcZzAgmYMsPZIK3PRzoU&cuid=1370072 https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchrismck...
  - callalex 10y ago
    You posted a link to a protected tweet that nobody can read with no summary or context.
    - losteric 10y ago
      It's not protected, I could read it and I don't even have a twitter account. > @chrismckillop: Slow news week? http://www.cnet.com/videos/googles-mysterious-new-project-fuchsia/ http://www.cnet.com/videos/googles-mysterious-new-project-fu... … #Fuchsia > @gavkar: @chrismckillop heard Travis was involved. Is the purple in pink + purple the purple we know? > @chrismckillop: @gavkar Yes and Yes (in spirit). The Pink part is also a reference to the Taligent project. You should come help. :) Here's the URL without the disqus tracker: https://twitter.com/chrismckillop/status/765438910658772992 https://twitter.com/chrismckillop/status/765438910658772992
      - pawadu 10y ago
        and what does this prove, exactly?
        10y ago
therealmarv 10y ago
Again this blog? Seems we have also fake news problems here on HN. This is all fairy tale speculating for me. And I don't believe his sources. And btw: Tizen is also based on Linux. You don't build that easy a Kernel replacement.
- pvg 10y ago
  That's not what 'fake news' means. It's perfectly clear the piece is speculative and it does not intentionally deceive (even if it turns out to be completely wrong).
  - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
    The title is "Proof". The url has "proof". Not only is that a misleading click-baitey title, it is also false, because there is no proof.
    - pvg 10y ago
      It's in quotes. It even talks about the quotes. It's obvious from the tone of the thing it's not presented as real proof. And again, "I don't like the title" is not what makes "fake news".
      - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
        Well this is quite a silly discussion then. If the author is using a title to mean something other than the words in the title in a manner such that the author still protects the veracity of the title, then what is the point of the title? All I can tell it is just a clickbait title. And then I read the article and see that it is a bunch of speculation and making inferences from puns.
        pvg 10y ago
        I don't think it's a great article or that great a title. But the fact that it's speculation is completely obvious. And that bit of punctuation is used to change the literal meaning of words, yes. It's just how English works.
frik 10y ago
It was pretty obvious for some time, but it's good that the dots are connected and documented, for some kind of proof. Fuchsia OS will be huge, even if it's hidden in the background. Samsung has its Tizen OS (previously Bada) for 6 years as alternative ready. If anything happens with Android that Samsung doesn't like the could ship new devices simply with Tizen and kiss Google good bye. It allowed them to get better agreements. I wonder why Samsung waited that long, they had a near monopoly around 2012 with Android devices, now several new chinese players entered the market. Samsung TV and Gear, and some phones run already on Tizen and some older on Bada. (Tizen is Linux based, it's history is complex and some involvement was also from Intel and Nokia (before the MSFT inside job)).
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  Have you used Tizen at all? How do you like it, if so?
  - pawadu 10y ago
    The first iteration was not very impressive, but has since steadily improved. If I had to choose between Android+Fuchsia and Tizen+Linux I might as well give Tizen a try. I am very impressed by their new watch, which IIRC runs Tizen.
pavanky 10y ago
That wasn't coherent at all. The only pieces of evidence are flimsy at best and then there is a shit ton of speculation.
rethab 10y ago
Doesn't putting "Proof" in quotes immediately disqualify it from being a proof?
- em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
  No. Putting quotes around a word could mean a whole bunch of things.
LordWinstanley 10y ago
"reached out" in the first sentence. That saved me some time!
dynaxis 10y ago
Googlers reach out him and confirm his guess is largely right? I can't believe it. The Googlers, please reach me and tell whatever you told the author. I can sign you an NDA.

I find it hard to believe that 8+ years of APIs and OS level code would be abandoned just like that, especially given the scale of Android. If this ever happens, it would probably be an extremely slow, well thought out (hopefully), well documented (also hopefully) rollout.

techenthusiast 10y ago
That's what I'm saying :) An (extremely) gradual phase-out of the Android API.
- relics443 10y ago
  I'm not sure the API can ever really be phased out due to the vast amount of legacy apps and libraries. Besides I'm sure a lot of developers wouldn't be happy that their domain knowledge just went flying through the window. Even if that is a risk inherent in the job.
  - techenthusiast 10y ago
    Extremely, extremely? :) Apple kept Carbon apps running on OS X for a very long time.
therealmarv 10y ago
Exactly. This sort of switch seems for me also a good way to increase the amount of bugs by a large scale. It may only work for very specific hardware I think.
- BrailleHunting 10y ago
  Job security and Apple-ish custom OS may long-term reduce support burden because Linux is like OpenSSL: a giant refrigerator, stove, oven, typewriter, glass kiln, laundromat kitchen-sink. It will take a very long time to reinvent the wheel and also deliver a PG "quantum of improvement," but there are plenty of Alphabet employees to do it. Also, similar Apple, it's an OS they control so there's less rejection / ignorning of Google's desired direction as with FLOSS.
  - pawadu 10y ago
    You grossly overestimate Googles ability to support an OS on multiple platforms. Do you remember the why Samsung Galaxy Nexus was abandoned? Apple supports iOS on two platforms (32-bit and 64-bit A-series). Microsoft who has been in the OS business much longer than than Google only have resources to support Windows 10 Mobile on a handful of carefully chosen Qualcomm chips. So basically the only way this could work is if Google would create their own SoC and mandate Android vendors to only use that SoC. I don't think Samsung would like that too much.
    - BrailleHunting 10y ago
      That's a given. Google also needs to control the hw platform to be successful. Open platform equals shoddy service/product because it would require adding a Microsoft-sized operation.
      - pawadu 10y ago
        Allow me to disagree. Open platform works great when people collaborate. Google has not collaborated with the Linux community.
cpeterso 10y ago
I agree. Why throw out the whole stack: kernel, APIs, and applications? OTOH, why is Google developing the Fuchsia? It is clearly more than a hobby project.
rdtsc 10y ago
They've already replaced Dalvik with ART for bytecode and it was mostly transparent from what I understood. But popping up with a completely new platform API without any backwards compatibility would be very bold and risky. There would have to be a good compatibility story there. Also there is talk in the article about a POSIX layer. Now that's easier said than done. But it is Google we are talking about so they certainly have the manpower and resources to try.
- loeg 10y ago
  It isn't too hard to do Linux ABI emulation. The interface there has mostly been stable for the last several years. That would enable just using the same userspace as Linux distributions like Android.
- relics443 10y ago
  A new runtime is very different then a new framework/API/OS. The former doesn't necessarily require code changes (dalvik -> ART did not), the latter requires new everything.
  - techenthusiast 10y ago
    The Android API wouldn't be going anywhere. That's what I say in the article - Fuchsia would continue to support the Android API seamlessly.
- Aissen 10y ago
  They did not. ART is here on-device architecture-specific and version-specific; Dalvik bytecode is still the portable bytecode used in all APKs. If they had replaced it, we wouldn't still be dealing with the 65k methods limit for example.
techenthusiast 10y ago
You wouldn't have to do it all at once. You'd emulate the Linux user space, and do everything incredibly gradually. Both APIs would be supported for many, many years. But they could stop advancing the Android API within a shorter timeframe.

arca_vorago 10y ago

I thought google would do something like this. They didn't want to fully embrace linux so they locked all the freedom of linux away behind restrictrions in android until they had a replacement and now they are going to try to drop gnu+linux anything GPL they can... The new kernel is MIT/BSD... Welcome to Tivoization all over again. I get the need for a better kernel, the gnu+linux kernel is out of control at over 14mil+loc, but why not put that effort into making a minix3 style microkernel that's gpl, or fix hurd? I wish people understood the dangers of BSD style licenses, I hope this fails, the last thing we need is another proprietary OS on a device they built on the backs of the FOSS community but doesn't give back in a meaningful way. We don't need another OSX, or android apps on your PC, we need someone with the money and will to fix the future of GNU!

caf 10y ago
I would wager that the majority of those sloc are not compiled into the typical Android kernel, though.
- em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
  Right. And we have tools like git which are able to handle large codebases. People shouldn't conflate high LoC counts with bloat.
geofft 10y ago
Even if someone with the money and will somehow wanted to sponsor the development of GNU, why would that fix it? The same story will just play out again. If you want this fixed, get someone with the money and the will to end the copyrightability of software. Or find a different solution to let users have control over their computing even when they don't have control over the OS - there's no fundamental reason why this should require legal solutions, as opposed to, say, cryptographic ones.
jsmeaton 10y ago
I don't understand the dangers of BSD style licenses, can you expand on that a bit please?

supremesaboteur 10y ago

Will it be lightweight ? Will it have a shell ? Will it be customizable ? Will it have loads of third party applications ? Will it support non-Google hardware ? Will it finally bring serious OS innovation to the consumer desktop market ? Here is to hoping yes!

RubenSandwich 10y ago

I'm sorry but his "proof" is mostly just puns. Sometimes OSS projects are given pun names simply for laughs, not because of some deeper meaning. No doubt Google is researching new OSs, View Managers and development frameworks. (Every company that large does.) But I think it's too early to call it a potential successor; architecture takes a long time to change.

techenthusiast 10y ago
https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchrismckillop%2Fstatus%2F765438910658772992%3Al4L8Nx5RcZzAgmYMsPZIK3PRzoU&cuid=1370072 https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fchrismck...
- callalex 10y ago
  You posted a link to a protected tweet that nobody can read with no summary or context.
  - losteric 10y ago
    It's not protected, I could read it and I don't even have a twitter account. > @chrismckillop: Slow news week? http://www.cnet.com/videos/googles-mysterious-new-project-fuchsia/ http://www.cnet.com/videos/googles-mysterious-new-project-fu... … #Fuchsia > @gavkar: @chrismckillop heard Travis was involved. Is the purple in pink + purple the purple we know? > @chrismckillop: @gavkar Yes and Yes (in spirit). The Pink part is also a reference to the Taligent project. You should come help. :) Here's the URL without the disqus tracker: https://twitter.com/chrismckillop/status/765438910658772992 https://twitter.com/chrismckillop/status/765438910658772992
    - pawadu 10y ago
      and what does this prove, exactly?
      - 10y ago

therealmarv 10y ago

Again this blog? Seems we have also fake news problems here on HN. This is all fairy tale speculating for me. And I don't believe his sources. And btw: Tizen is also based on Linux. You don't build that easy a Kernel replacement.

pvg 10y ago
That's not what 'fake news' means. It's perfectly clear the piece is speculative and it does not intentionally deceive (even if it turns out to be completely wrong).
- em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
  The title is "Proof". The url has "proof". Not only is that a misleading click-baitey title, it is also false, because there is no proof.
  - pvg 10y ago
    It's in quotes. It even talks about the quotes. It's obvious from the tone of the thing it's not presented as real proof. And again, "I don't like the title" is not what makes "fake news".
    - em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
      Well this is quite a silly discussion then. If the author is using a title to mean something other than the words in the title in a manner such that the author still protects the veracity of the title, then what is the point of the title? All I can tell it is just a clickbait title. And then I read the article and see that it is a bunch of speculation and making inferences from puns.
      - pvg 10y ago
        I don't think it's a great article or that great a title. But the fact that it's speculation is completely obvious. And that bit of punctuation is used to change the literal meaning of words, yes. It's just how English works.

frik 10y ago

It was pretty obvious for some time, but it's good that the dots are connected and documented, for some kind of proof. Fuchsia OS will be huge, even if it's hidden in the background. Samsung has its Tizen OS (previously Bada) for 6 years as alternative ready. If anything happens with Android that Samsung doesn't like the could ship new devices simply with Tizen and kiss Google good bye. It allowed them to get better agreements. I wonder why Samsung waited that long, they had a near monopoly around 2012 with Android devices, now several new chinese players entered the market. Samsung TV and Gear, and some phones run already on Tizen and some older on Bada. (Tizen is Linux based, it's history is complex and some involvement was also from Intel and Nokia (before the MSFT inside job)).

CaptSpify 10y ago
Have you used Tizen at all? How do you like it, if so?
- pawadu 10y ago
  The first iteration was not very impressive, but has since steadily improved. If I had to choose between Android+Fuchsia and Tizen+Linux I might as well give Tizen a try. I am very impressed by their new watch, which IIRC runs Tizen.

pavanky 10y ago

That wasn't coherent at all. The only pieces of evidence are flimsy at best and then there is a shit ton of speculation.

rethab 10y ago

Doesn't putting "Proof" in quotes immediately disqualify it from being a proof?

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
No. Putting quotes around a word could mean a whole bunch of things.

LordWinstanley 10y ago

"reached out" in the first sentence. That saved me some time!

dynaxis 10y ago

Googlers reach out him and confirm his guess is largely right? I can't believe it. The Googlers, please reach me and tell whatever you told the author. I can sign you an NDA.