4 ms·

> The other problem I have with all of these articles/arguments is this image being painted that the US would be dumb as a rock if it weren't for the influx of

> The other problem I have with all of these articles/arguments is this image being painted that the US would be dumb as a rock if it weren't for the influx of immigrants. That's a silly straw-man. The reasonable form of the argument is about marginal effects: for each smart immigrant you remove, America becomes dumber, for each smart immigrant you add, America becomes smarter. That form of the argument is evidently true regardless of how many smart people were born in America. > This idea that we better let-in hordes of immigrants for fear of not having businesses launched or any innovation It's not that there wouldn't be any, just less. America will be poorer — not destitute, but less rich — if it keeps out smart immigrants.

rebootthesystem 10y ago
I disagree with both your premises. You could also argue that, by not allowing an immigrant in you can open up another slot for someone already in the US to attend MIT (or any other university). If you read enough of these articles they all sound the same: We need immigrants because otherwise we will not have innovation and we will not have new businesses. These arguments are not being made as mathematical or statistical realities, they are simple fabrications to produce emotional response. I take offense to that. I'd rather we agree we need immigration and not justify it through fabricated logic. > It's not that there wouldn't be any, just less. America will be poorer — not destitute, but less rich — if it keeps out smart immigrants. I think you bought into the fallacy. We don't stop thinking, innovating or creating just because person X didn't come into the country. If Musk didn't get involved with Tesla someone else would have (another bit of misinformation, he isn't the founder). Would we have had SpaceX? Well, maybe not. But that doesn't mean we would have no new rocket companies at all. Look at what Jeff Bezos is doing. Again, I am not anti-immigrant...I just want honesty in the discussion.
- greglindahl 10y ago
  You're engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy. MIT likely has a choice of a high-scoring, likelier-to-succeed foreign student vs a lower-scoring, likelier-to-fail American. All of the better US public schools have the same dilemma for in-state vs. out-of-state students: the out of state students are smarter on average. As a student, I'd rather go to school with smarter kids. Maybe you don't.
  - rebootthesystem 10y ago
    > You're engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy. No, I am not. You are missing the entire point. Nearly every article or mention of immigration includes some variant of the equivalent to (paraphrasing): "Without immigrants our entrepreneurship suffers greatly". I reject this with passion. We have amazing people already in the country, both native and existing legal immigrants. If we closed all immigration today (not proposing this is a good idea) we would have no problem at all maintaining a rate of innovation that challenges most other nations. We have excellent people already in the country. We don't need to use this lie to justify the need for immigration. There are a number of very compelling and valid reasons for which immigration is important and should be encouraged. The above-paraphrased fear-mongering claim isn't one of them.
    - greglindahl 10y ago
      I am not missing the point. I have worked with many amazing people, the more the better. Some are immigrants. Clearly, the total number of amazing people in the US is going to decline if we are unfriendly to immigrants. I want the best country, so I want immigrants. Sorry that this argument doesn't work for you. But yes, you are engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy: the more great people we have, the more innovation we will have.
      - rebootthesystem 10y ago
        Hmm. Not sure how many different ways to say it. I've been very clear. This isn't about not wanting immigrants. This is about not creating false reasons for which we claim immigration is necessary or important. That's it. Simple as that. > the more great people we have, the more innovation we will have Absolutely, positively, unequivocally false. Innovation is NOT a function of quantity. General Motors has over 200,000 employees. Tesla had about 900 employees in 2010. They innovated the shit out of a market dominated by giants. And that's the story of every single small team that has disrupted market segments. Read "The Innovator's Dilemma". More people does not mean more innovation. This is demonstrably false across a wide range of industries. We do not need to import people to innovate and foster entrepreneurial drive. We have enough smart people already on board.

rebootthesystem 10y ago

I disagree with both your premises. You could also argue that, by not allowing an immigrant in you can open up another slot for someone already in the US to attend MIT (or any other university). If you read enough of these articles they all sound the same: We need immigrants because otherwise we will not have innovation and we will not have new businesses. These arguments are not being made as mathematical or statistical realities, they are simple fabrications to produce emotional response. I take offense to that. I'd rather we agree we need immigration and not justify it through fabricated logic. > It's not that there wouldn't be any, just less. America will be poorer — not destitute, but less rich — if it keeps out smart immigrants. I think you bought into the fallacy. We don't stop thinking, innovating or creating just because person X didn't come into the country. If Musk didn't get involved with Tesla someone else would have (another bit of misinformation, he isn't the founder). Would we have had SpaceX? Well, maybe not. But that doesn't mean we would have no new rocket companies at all. Look at what Jeff Bezos is doing. Again, I am not anti-immigrant...I just want honesty in the discussion.

greglindahl 10y ago
You're engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy. MIT likely has a choice of a high-scoring, likelier-to-succeed foreign student vs a lower-scoring, likelier-to-fail American. All of the better US public schools have the same dilemma for in-state vs. out-of-state students: the out of state students are smarter on average. As a student, I'd rather go to school with smarter kids. Maybe you don't.
- rebootthesystem 10y ago
  > You're engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy. No, I am not. You are missing the entire point. Nearly every article or mention of immigration includes some variant of the equivalent to (paraphrasing): "Without immigrants our entrepreneurship suffers greatly". I reject this with passion. We have amazing people already in the country, both native and existing legal immigrants. If we closed all immigration today (not proposing this is a good idea) we would have no problem at all maintaining a rate of innovation that challenges most other nations. We have excellent people already in the country. We don't need to use this lie to justify the need for immigration. There are a number of very compelling and valid reasons for which immigration is important and should be encouraged. The above-paraphrased fear-mongering claim isn't one of them.
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    I am not missing the point. I have worked with many amazing people, the more the better. Some are immigrants. Clearly, the total number of amazing people in the US is going to decline if we are unfriendly to immigrants. I want the best country, so I want immigrants. Sorry that this argument doesn't work for you. But yes, you are engaging in a variant of the "lump of labor" fallacy: the more great people we have, the more innovation we will have.
    - rebootthesystem 10y ago
      Hmm. Not sure how many different ways to say it. I've been very clear. This isn't about not wanting immigrants. This is about not creating false reasons for which we claim immigration is necessary or important. That's it. Simple as that. > the more great people we have, the more innovation we will have Absolutely, positively, unequivocally false. Innovation is NOT a function of quantity. General Motors has over 200,000 employees. Tesla had about 900 employees in 2010. They innovated the shit out of a market dominated by giants. And that's the story of every single small team that has disrupted market segments. Read "The Innovator's Dilemma". More people does not mean more innovation. This is demonstrably false across a wide range of industries. We do not need to import people to innovate and foster entrepreneurial drive. We have enough smart people already on board.