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They are not virtually powerless. They effectively use intimidation to coerce people to not offend them.

by fgf 16y ago

ErrantX 16y ago
No, they effectively use propaganda and the media to propagate fear leading to demonstrations such as this. Lets not beat around the bush; this protest was born out of fear. And so the extremists aims are met.
- mike_organon 16y ago
  If we draw silly pictures, the terrorists will win.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Yes. (though "win" is a relative term - "further their aims" is more realistic)
- fgf 16y ago
  This has to be the 1080-backflip-while-juggling off cognitive dissonance avoidance. Explain the goal of these extremists.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Well. Ultimately to put and end to us all :-) But in this case fear. It is their most powerful weapon by far. Individuals and the media can be manipulated into raising their profile and spreading fear. There is an excellent book called "risk" by dan Gardner which deals with the topic in great detail.
    - fgf 16y ago
      So people like those who attacked the professor in sweden are all coordinating to get the media all riled up and scare the shit out of me and thus making me ripe for manipulation by evil politicians? I think not. My strategy is easy. Repeat the pattern of (almost complete) secularization of jews and christians in europe. Treat violence against people who offend religious sensibilities like you treat violence against jews or africans; punish those who do it and make all association or expressions of sympathy with the perpetrators unacceptable.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        To your first sentence: yes. That being the entire point of terrorism.
      - ErrantX 16y ago
        Damn right on the last bit. So how does reacting to bunk threats (threats, not actions) like this fit? It's fear; pure and simple. As to the first bit - your just constructing an idiotic scenario that doesn't exist. The attackers in Sweden are not deliberately trying to cause fear - thy are just trying to hurt a guy. However at some point in the background is someone who understands the impact of their actions on a wider scale. Many men exist within the echelons of terrorists. Many may not communicate together - but they don't really need to. The plan is brutally simple and uncomplicated; cause terror. I don't think it is possible to claim there isn't a climate of fear in the western world. We see it every week almost.
        fgf 16y ago
        Not trying to create fear? I think they knew that they were causing fear and that they got a kick out of it. I feel pretty certain you're white and not that tough.. Imagine yourself in a room with lots of black guys talking about ending AA or something like that and they attack you while people in the background sing kill whitey. Thats how the professor felt. This whole Islam vs Liberalism thing is not terribly important to me (I'm only proczastinating tonight) but had I considered speaking up about something that would piss muslims off that would have been the kind of thing I was afraid of. The dutch filmaker was killed by people like that. The swede needed police protection to show a youtube video with anti islamic art. In Oslo Ali is the most common name, a fifth of the population is muslim and there is a fusion of gang violence and muslim identity politics. Being hated by the muslim population would be very uncomfortable. It would be like being a high profile KKK member living in a black neighborhood.
        tptacek 16y ago
        And, to extend your silly analogy to its logical conclusion, imagine that as a result of that experience we declared a national day of "making sure black people know they can't push us around anymore".
  - tptacek 16y ago
    There are a tiny number of extremists right now. There are a huge number of rational people. They would like to even the odds a little. To do that, they will do things to move people from the "rational" column to the "extremist" column. Being members of a tiny extremist minority, they have little direct ability to move anyone anywhere. So, instead of simply trying to persuade more Muslims to support their ultimately futile cause, they provoke us into doing the persuading. By making Muslims into "others". Because when the KKK marches in Skokie, we're uniformly disgusted. But when thousands of people draw cartoons of Mohammad, they're lionized. You have to be --- literally, you have to be willfully ignorant to believe that death threats to cartoonists are designed to cow us into not depicting Mohammad. What bothers me about this whole thing is not that we're offending Muslims. What bothers me is that we're so easily manipulated.
    - tome 16y ago
      So what was the murder of Theo van Gogh designed to manipulate us into doing? Or was it actually just someone murdering someone who was critical of Islam, because they didn't like the fact he was critical of Islam?

They are not virtually powerless. They effectively use intimidation to coerce people to not offend them.

by fgf 16y ago

They are not virtually powerless. They effectively use intimidation to coerce people to not offend them.

No, they effectively use propaganda and the media to propagate fear leading to demonstrations such as this. Lets not beat around the bush; this protest was born out of fear. And so the extremists aims are met.

mike_organon 16y ago
If we draw silly pictures, the terrorists will win.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Yes. (though "win" is a relative term - "further their aims" is more realistic)
fgf 16y ago
This has to be the 1080-backflip-while-juggling off cognitive dissonance avoidance. Explain the goal of these extremists.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Well. Ultimately to put and end to us all :-) But in this case fear. It is their most powerful weapon by far. Individuals and the media can be manipulated into raising their profile and spreading fear. There is an excellent book called "risk" by dan Gardner which deals with the topic in great detail.
  - fgf 16y ago
    So people like those who attacked the professor in sweden are all coordinating to get the media all riled up and scare the shit out of me and thus making me ripe for manipulation by evil politicians? I think not. My strategy is easy. Repeat the pattern of (almost complete) secularization of jews and christians in europe. Treat violence against people who offend religious sensibilities like you treat violence against jews or africans; punish those who do it and make all association or expressions of sympathy with the perpetrators unacceptable.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      To your first sentence: yes. That being the entire point of terrorism.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      Damn right on the last bit. So how does reacting to bunk threats (threats, not actions) like this fit? It's fear; pure and simple. As to the first bit - your just constructing an idiotic scenario that doesn't exist. The attackers in Sweden are not deliberately trying to cause fear - thy are just trying to hurt a guy. However at some point in the background is someone who understands the impact of their actions on a wider scale. Many men exist within the echelons of terrorists. Many may not communicate together - but they don't really need to. The plan is brutally simple and uncomplicated; cause terror. I don't think it is possible to claim there isn't a climate of fear in the western world. We see it every week almost.
      - fgf 16y ago
        Not trying to create fear? I think they knew that they were causing fear and that they got a kick out of it. I feel pretty certain you're white and not that tough.. Imagine yourself in a room with lots of black guys talking about ending AA or something like that and they attack you while people in the background sing kill whitey. Thats how the professor felt. This whole Islam vs Liberalism thing is not terribly important to me (I'm only proczastinating tonight) but had I considered speaking up about something that would piss muslims off that would have been the kind of thing I was afraid of. The dutch filmaker was killed by people like that. The swede needed police protection to show a youtube video with anti islamic art. In Oslo Ali is the most common name, a fifth of the population is muslim and there is a fusion of gang violence and muslim identity politics. Being hated by the muslim population would be very uncomfortable. It would be like being a high profile KKK member living in a black neighborhood.
        tptacek 16y ago
        And, to extend your silly analogy to its logical conclusion, imagine that as a result of that experience we declared a national day of "making sure black people know they can't push us around anymore".
- tptacek 16y ago
  There are a tiny number of extremists right now. There are a huge number of rational people. They would like to even the odds a little. To do that, they will do things to move people from the "rational" column to the "extremist" column. Being members of a tiny extremist minority, they have little direct ability to move anyone anywhere. So, instead of simply trying to persuade more Muslims to support their ultimately futile cause, they provoke us into doing the persuading. By making Muslims into "others". Because when the KKK marches in Skokie, we're uniformly disgusted. But when thousands of people draw cartoons of Mohammad, they're lionized. You have to be --- literally, you have to be willfully ignorant to believe that death threats to cartoonists are designed to cow us into not depicting Mohammad. What bothers me about this whole thing is not that we're offending Muslims. What bothers me is that we're so easily manipulated.
  - tome 16y ago
    So what was the murder of Theo van Gogh designed to manipulate us into doing? Or was it actually just someone murdering someone who was critical of Islam, because they didn't like the fact he was critical of Islam?