7 ms·

MIT files amicus brief concerning executive order restricting travel to US

uberBoober 10y ago
Not surprising, US universities have been educating despots and their cabinets for decades. Care to guess which nation has the highest number of US college alums serving in any foreign government cabinet in the world? http://www.businessinsider.com/does-it-matter-if-irans-leaders-are-us-educated-2014-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/does-it-matter-if-irans-leade...
- pboutros 10y ago
  This... is not the right take
  - uberBoober 10y ago
    Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
    - keepper 10y ago
      Because your s/n is uberBoober and you registered 2 minutes ago, trying to obscure who you really are? If your opinion is so valid, have the courage to back it up. ( sorry for the off-topic comment )
      - uberBoober 10y ago
        Expressing true opinions which, may not be well received by the community, especially those who have a penchant to lash out when confronted with reality contrary to their beliefs, is the reason we have anonymity. Case in point the post went from +4 to -4 in a matter of minutes. Downvotes yum yum yum. Still no one bothered to put forth an answer to the question, nor refute any statement.
        anigbrowl 10y ago
        Your opinion isn't truthful. Your implicit claim is that by educating foreigners we enable despotism to work better, an argument which is self-evidently specious in an era of widely accessible information. .
        randomguy23 10y ago
        lol - 'self-evidently specious'? You mean that only good and altruistic people want to learn? That is self-evidently false.
    - swasheck 10y ago
      pboutros didn't make any claims about the validity of your opinion, only about its correctness.
      - uberBoober 10y ago
        Ok, but my statement is correct. The US has educated despots and their cabinets for decades. Would you enjoy an articulated list?
        chickenfries 10y ago
        I don't follow the logic in your original statement. You don't think MIT is motivated by the fact that they have students and professors from these countries, who have nothing to do with autocrats? Surely you're not accusing every Iranian MIT professor of being a despot.
        jcranmer 10y ago
        If you look at rankings of world universities, the US has the plurality of top universities. Why should it be surprising that plutocrats and autocrats should seek to send their children to top universities?
        swasheck 10y ago
        certainly they have educated despots, just as many foreign banks possible house deposited illicit funds from many US-born people. academia has no moral obligation to government and any suggestion i can think of that affirms that it should are irresponsible.
- macscam 10y ago
  What about the military? School of america trained bin ladin. Money flows from US govt contracts to saudis to isis
  - uberBoober 10y ago
    Interesting I never heard of Osama attending School of America. Closest interaction I could find between him and US education institution was "Sheik Bakr Mohammed bin Laden, Osama bin Laden’s brother, made two gifts to the University in 1993 and 1994 to fund fellowships for advanced study in Islamic culture." ... "Harvard’s ties to bin Laden money have come into question before. In 1998, after Osama bin Laden was accused of the embassy bombings in Africa, then-University spokespeson Alex S. Huppé said, “It’s clear the Saudi bin Laden money is being put to good use here.”" http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2001/9/13/bin-laden-ties-to-harvard-with/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2001/9/13/bin-laden-ties-t...
    - Animats 10y ago
      The "School of the Americas" was a U.S. Army operation originally based in Panama to train military from mostly Latin America countries. It's been criticized on various grounds, but bin Laden never went there.
- mikeash 10y ago
  How is that relevant?
  - anigbrowl 10y ago
    It isn't. It's just a derailment tactic to prevent discussion of the brief's own arguments.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  And what's the problem with that, exactly? That's what the free market is all about. The solution you're implicitly proposing is that we ban all foreign students because of a few bad eggs. Have you also measured the impact foreign students had on the institutions they attended? How many grants were given because of proposals from foreign students? How about how many US educated diplomats and/or foreign officials ended up improving their country's relations with the US because of their education experience?
- Steko 10y ago
  9 out of 10 despots prefer Coke to Pepsi. Maybe it's just because Coke is better and you don't need a magical conspiracy theory about how Coke is the cause of despotism.
DannyBee 10y ago
This is nice, but the thing that is going to hurt them massively here is standing issues. All of the harm to the plaintiffs in these cases is very attenuated compared to direct lawsuits from people affected. The current 9th circuit one has a large chance of getting reversed on standing issues (en banc most likely), and honestly, probably should be. Past that ,the real best hope is that folks like Thomas, et al will ask "remind me again why, if the constitution gives this power to congress, you believe it's okay for congress to give all of it to the executive branch" But that seems unlikely. More likely roberts decides he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of history.
- jcranmer 10y ago
  MIT filed an amicus curiae brief. This isn't saying "we assert standing" but saying "we have an interest in this case, and here are our thoughts on the matter." Given that the plaintiffs in the suit are people who have been denied entry by the executive order but have valid visas, I doubt standing would be denied. And I'm pretty sure one of the lawsuits has an affected green card member as a plaintiff, which is going to be very hard to deny standing to.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  If I understand the attorneys-general' strategy correctly, they're recycling the same standing argument that the 5th circuit upheld in Texas v. US, just in pursuit of a different objective. Of course a circuit split could ensue but given that Texas had 25 co-plaintiffs there's a good chance that they're now hoist by their own petard. I'm very weak on civil procedure though so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot. http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C15/15-40238-CV0.pdf http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C15/15-40238-CV0...
  - anigbrowl 10y ago
    Also raises the much more interesting question of where to locate the apostrophe for the possessive case when discussing the actions of attorneys-general. Priorities! http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/lawprose-lesson-116-whats-the-plural-form-of-attorney-general-and-what-is-the-plural-possessive/ http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/lawprose-lesson-116-what...
beedogs 10y ago
Impeachment cannot happen quickly enough.
- gozur88 10y ago
  There aren't any grounds for impeachment, and even if there were you'd have to convince an awful lot of Republicans it's warranted. And... "President Pence".
  - RijilV 10y ago
    two words: Gerald Ford.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      Good luck with that.
redtree 10y ago
I want to mention the fact the Elon Musk actually supports the Travel ban, but maybe because he has govt contracts with NASA, and wants more contracts and money. Sad to see him stoop to that level.
- zackbloom 10y ago
  This is just not true. His tweet specifically said this was not the best way forward. I appreciate that you have strong opinions, but just because you don't think he's taking a strong enough stand doesn't mean you can put words in his mouth.
- anon-caltech 10y ago
  It's also interesting to note which elite universities are not present as signatories. Notice that Caltech is missing. I'm curious about whether that is due to the significant funding they effectively receive as the managers of JPL and are concerned about retribution. It's indefensible IMO not to stand behind their community, many of whom are Iranian.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Musk doesn't support it: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/825502400454594561 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/825502400454594561 He has continued to have meetings with the current administration since it was issued though.
- catwind7 10y ago
  Not true. http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/technology/elon-musk-trump-travel-ban/ http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/technology/elon-musk-trump-t... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/07/elon-musks-spacex-and-tesla-join-filing-against-trumps-travel-ban https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/07/elon-musk...
- mikeash 10y ago
  Where did you get this idea?
- redtree 10y ago
rebootthesystem 10y ago
I applaud the move. Yet it is important to put all the cards on the table. I can't help to be bothered by what could pass of hypocrisy at various levels. The article explains that 40% of MIT's grad students are "international". This means MIT's problem is a BUSINESS problem. At well over $50K per year per student the university-as-a-business (rather than an altruistic entity) is concerned about a drop in revenue should immigration policy change. Let's not pretend this is all about good intentions, pink unicorns and ice cream. This is a business fighting for their revenue sources. And they have every right --even the responsibility-- to do so. I respect that. No issues there so long as everyone is honest about it. The other problem I have with all of these articles/arguments is this image being painted that the US would be dumb as a rock if it weren't for the influx of immigrants. I'm sorry, I don't buy that one bit. We already have great talent in this country. What we don't have is affordable schools (and books, etc.). A school like MIT (don't mean to focus on them, pick any school) can charge exorbitant tuition to foreign-born students and make millions. And the students pay for it. Not so with us-born students. Particularly given the state of the economy, unemployment, etc. This idea that we better let-in hordes of immigrants for fear of not having businesses launched or any innovation is, well, repulsive. That would mean we are a wasteland of a country, and need to be rescued by immigrants, which clearly isn't the case. This isn't to say immigration isn't good. I am not anti-immigrant at all. That would mean being against what allowed my own family to LEGALLY come to the US eons ago. No. My problem is with the fear-mongering that goes along with these arguments. It's dishonest and unnecessary. It is OK to say we want immigrants because they are important to our continued cultural and economic growth. It's OK to say we want refugees because it is important to continue to define ourselves as a caring and socially conscious people. These things don't need to be embellished with "if we don't let immigrants in nobody is going to start companies, no jobs will be created and no innovation will be had". Sorry, immigrants don't have a monopoly on this. And they sure as heck don't have magical powers. We have lots of very capable and creating people already in the country. Let's don't diminish them to dumber-than-a-rock status. As for MIT and other universities. They should be honest and say "we are going to lose a ton of money because we make a killing with foreign students". I can respect that. They are, after all, businesses. On the other hand, if MIT had no foreign students and charged a LOT less for tuition it would be full of wonderful, capable, creative and eager-to-contribute US residents. The problem is very few can justify spending over $200K on a university education today. That's what these universities are trying to protect.
mhneu 10y ago
This brief is interesting because of the MIT president's personal engagement. Rafael Reif is a Venezuelan immigrant who has been moved to speak out against an immigration ban . Reif understands the immigration issues well as a Jew whose ancestors were refugees to Venezuela, and who has watched his home country disintegrate under Chavez.
- ue_ 10y ago
  What's happening in Venezuela is indeed saddening, and I say this as a Communist.

Not surprising, US universities have been educating despots and their cabinets for decades. Care to guess which nation has the highest number of US college alums serving in any foreign government cabinet in the world? http://www.businessinsider.com/does-it-matter-if-irans-leaders-are-us-educated-2014-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/does-it-matter-if-irans-leade...

pboutros 10y ago
This... is not the right take
- uberBoober 10y ago
  Why is your opinion more valid than mine?
  - keepper 10y ago
    Because your s/n is uberBoober and you registered 2 minutes ago, trying to obscure who you really are? If your opinion is so valid, have the courage to back it up. ( sorry for the off-topic comment )
    - uberBoober 10y ago
      Expressing true opinions which, may not be well received by the community, especially those who have a penchant to lash out when confronted with reality contrary to their beliefs, is the reason we have anonymity. Case in point the post went from +4 to -4 in a matter of minutes. Downvotes yum yum yum. Still no one bothered to put forth an answer to the question, nor refute any statement.
      - anigbrowl 10y ago
        Your opinion isn't truthful. Your implicit claim is that by educating foreigners we enable despotism to work better, an argument which is self-evidently specious in an era of widely accessible information. .
        randomguy23 10y ago
        lol - 'self-evidently specious'? You mean that only good and altruistic people want to learn? That is self-evidently false.
  - swasheck 10y ago
    pboutros didn't make any claims about the validity of your opinion, only about its correctness.
    - uberBoober 10y ago
      Ok, but my statement is correct. The US has educated despots and their cabinets for decades. Would you enjoy an articulated list?
      - chickenfries 10y ago
        I don't follow the logic in your original statement. You don't think MIT is motivated by the fact that they have students and professors from these countries, who have nothing to do with autocrats? Surely you're not accusing every Iranian MIT professor of being a despot.
      - jcranmer 10y ago
        If you look at rankings of world universities, the US has the plurality of top universities. Why should it be surprising that plutocrats and autocrats should seek to send their children to top universities?
      - swasheck 10y ago
        certainly they have educated despots, just as many foreign banks possible house deposited illicit funds from many US-born people. academia has no moral obligation to government and any suggestion i can think of that affirms that it should are irresponsible.
macscam 10y ago
What about the military? School of america trained bin ladin. Money flows from US govt contracts to saudis to isis
- uberBoober 10y ago
  Interesting I never heard of Osama attending School of America. Closest interaction I could find between him and US education institution was "Sheik Bakr Mohammed bin Laden, Osama bin Laden’s brother, made two gifts to the University in 1993 and 1994 to fund fellowships for advanced study in Islamic culture." ... "Harvard’s ties to bin Laden money have come into question before. In 1998, after Osama bin Laden was accused of the embassy bombings in Africa, then-University spokespeson Alex S. Huppé said, “It’s clear the Saudi bin Laden money is being put to good use here.”" http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2001/9/13/bin-laden-ties-to-harvard-with/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2001/9/13/bin-laden-ties-t...
  - Animats 10y ago
    The "School of the Americas" was a U.S. Army operation originally based in Panama to train military from mostly Latin America countries. It's been criticized on various grounds, but bin Laden never went there.
mikeash 10y ago
How is that relevant?
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  It isn't. It's just a derailment tactic to prevent discussion of the brief's own arguments.
Cyph0n 10y ago
And what's the problem with that, exactly? That's what the free market is all about. The solution you're implicitly proposing is that we ban all foreign students because of a few bad eggs. Have you also measured the impact foreign students had on the institutions they attended? How many grants were given because of proposals from foreign students? How about how many US educated diplomats and/or foreign officials ended up improving their country's relations with the US because of their education experience?
Steko 10y ago
9 out of 10 despots prefer Coke to Pepsi. Maybe it's just because Coke is better and you don't need a magical conspiracy theory about how Coke is the cause of despotism.

DannyBee 10y ago

This is nice, but the thing that is going to hurt them massively here is standing issues. All of the harm to the plaintiffs in these cases is very attenuated compared to direct lawsuits from people affected. The current 9th circuit one has a large chance of getting reversed on standing issues (en banc most likely), and honestly, probably should be. Past that ,the real best hope is that folks like Thomas, et al will ask "remind me again why, if the constitution gives this power to congress, you believe it's okay for congress to give all of it to the executive branch" But that seems unlikely. More likely roberts decides he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of history.

jcranmer 10y ago
MIT filed an amicus curiae brief. This isn't saying "we assert standing" but saying "we have an interest in this case, and here are our thoughts on the matter." Given that the plaintiffs in the suit are people who have been denied entry by the executive order but have valid visas, I doubt standing would be denied. And I'm pretty sure one of the lawsuits has an affected green card member as a plaintiff, which is going to be very hard to deny standing to.
anigbrowl 10y ago
If I understand the attorneys-general' strategy correctly, they're recycling the same standing argument that the 5th circuit upheld in Texas v. US, just in pursuit of a different objective. Of course a circuit split could ensue but given that Texas had 25 co-plaintiffs there's a good chance that they're now hoist by their own petard. I'm very weak on civil procedure though so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot. http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C15/15-40238-CV0.pdf http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions%5Cpub%5C15/15-40238-CV0...
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Also raises the much more interesting question of where to locate the apostrophe for the possessive case when discussing the actions of attorneys-general. Priorities! http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/lawprose-lesson-116-whats-the-plural-form-of-attorney-general-and-what-is-the-plural-possessive/ http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/lawprose-lesson-116-what...

beedogs 10y ago

Impeachment cannot happen quickly enough.

gozur88 10y ago
There aren't any grounds for impeachment, and even if there were you'd have to convince an awful lot of Republicans it's warranted. And... "President Pence".
- RijilV 10y ago
  two words: Gerald Ford.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Good luck with that.

redtree 10y ago

I want to mention the fact the Elon Musk actually supports the Travel ban, but maybe because he has govt contracts with NASA, and wants more contracts and money. Sad to see him stoop to that level.

zackbloom 10y ago
This is just not true. His tweet specifically said this was not the best way forward. I appreciate that you have strong opinions, but just because you don't think he's taking a strong enough stand doesn't mean you can put words in his mouth.
anon-caltech 10y ago
It's also interesting to note which elite universities are not present as signatories. Notice that Caltech is missing. I'm curious about whether that is due to the significant funding they effectively receive as the managers of JPL and are concerned about retribution. It's indefensible IMO not to stand behind their community, many of whom are Iranian.
maxerickson 10y ago
Musk doesn't support it: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/825502400454594561 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/825502400454594561 He has continued to have meetings with the current administration since it was issued though.
catwind7 10y ago
Not true. http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/technology/elon-musk-trump-travel-ban/ http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/technology/elon-musk-trump-t... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/07/elon-musks-spacex-and-tesla-join-filing-against-trumps-travel-ban https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/07/elon-musk...
mikeash 10y ago
Where did you get this idea?
redtree 10y ago

rebootthesystem 10y ago

I applaud the move. Yet it is important to put all the cards on the table. I can't help to be bothered by what could pass of hypocrisy at various levels. The article explains that 40% of MIT's grad students are "international". This means MIT's problem is a BUSINESS problem. At well over $50K per year per student the university-as-a-business (rather than an altruistic entity) is concerned about a drop in revenue should immigration policy change. Let's not pretend this is all about good intentions, pink unicorns and ice cream. This is a business fighting for their revenue sources. And they have every right --even the responsibility-- to do so. I respect that. No issues there so long as everyone is honest about it. The other problem I have with all of these articles/arguments is this image being painted that the US would be dumb as a rock if it weren't for the influx of immigrants. I'm sorry, I don't buy that one bit. We already have great talent in this country. What we don't have is affordable schools (and books, etc.). A school like MIT (don't mean to focus on them, pick any school) can charge exorbitant tuition to foreign-born students and make millions. And the students pay for it. Not so with us-born students. Particularly given the state of the economy, unemployment, etc. This idea that we better let-in hordes of immigrants for fear of not having businesses launched or any innovation is, well, repulsive. That would mean we are a wasteland of a country, and need to be rescued by immigrants, which clearly isn't the case. This isn't to say immigration isn't good. I am not anti-immigrant at all. That would mean being against what allowed my own family to LEGALLY come to the US eons ago. No. My problem is with the fear-mongering that goes along with these arguments. It's dishonest and unnecessary. It is OK to say we want immigrants because they are important to our continued cultural and economic growth. It's OK to say we want refugees because it is important to continue to define ourselves as a caring and socially conscious people. These things don't need to be embellished with "if we don't let immigrants in nobody is going to start companies, no jobs will be created and no innovation will be had". Sorry, immigrants don't have a monopoly on this. And they sure as heck don't have magical powers. We have lots of very capable and creating people already in the country. Let's don't diminish them to dumber-than-a-rock status. As for MIT and other universities. They should be honest and say "we are going to lose a ton of money because we make a killing with foreign students". I can respect that. They are, after all, businesses. On the other hand, if MIT had no foreign students and charged a LOT less for tuition it would be full of wonderful, capable, creative and eager-to-contribute US residents. The problem is very few can justify spending over $200K on a university education today. That's what these universities are trying to protect.

mhneu 10y ago

This brief is interesting because of the MIT president's personal engagement. Rafael Reif is a Venezuelan immigrant who has been moved to speak out against an immigration ban . Reif understands the immigration issues well as a Jew whose ancestors were refugees to Venezuela, and who has watched his home country disintegrate under Chavez.

ue_ 10y ago
What's happening in Venezuela is indeed saddening, and I say this as a Communist.