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As echoed elsewhere... this is childish, proves nothing and solves nothing. The extremists will be delighted; they get to propagate fear and use this as propag

by ErrantX 16y ago

As echoed elsewhere... this is childish, proves nothing and solves nothing. The extremists will be delighted; they get to propagate fear and use this as propaganda. Moderate Muslims will probably consider it a bit childish (and may be offended, that's their right I suppose) Anti-westernism will be bolstered a little more in the Muslim states And people like myself just feel a bit embarrassed to be on the "same side" as these people. Now, if someone wants to sit down and discuss how we could perform a grown up show of strength and unity against extremism then I'm all for it. (I think the first point is the most important one; clearly this is going to backfire because it is the reaction the extremists where looking/hoping for. It's progressing to the point where they don't need to bother trying the actual terrorism any more - certain elements in Western society are scared to death and reacting to just words...)

tome 16y ago
Frankly I don't care if anyone is anti-western, so long as "anti-western" means "anti people who are harmlessly drawing pictures". If someone is "anti-western" because of exploitative child labour, pillaging natural resources of the third world, etc. then great, let's sit down and talk. But harmlessly drawing pictures? Come on.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Frankly I don't care if anyone is anti-western, so long as "anti-western" means "anti people who are harmlessly drawing pictures". What I'm trying to say is that the profile of the US (the general symbol of Westernism in Islamic states) is already extremely low. A lot of people consider the US rude and intolerant; that's just the image that has unfortunately developed. Ordinary people in those states are probably looking at this and thinking "well this just proves it doesn't it". I'm not sure alienating people further is a clever idea (us vs. them is one reason why extremism is fostered on both sides). It's not even really about causing offence (as already pointed out, everyone is offended by someone) but about "proving" to people in those states we don't really understand the problem... This is pitched as sticking a finger up to extremists; a sentiment I utterly agree with. What it actually is is feeding them ammunition, and potentially causing more resentment in Mulsim countries. I can't help feeling there is a better way to stick that finger up :) Also; this stinks of fear to me.
  - tome 16y ago
    I don't think we do understand the problem. What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person? It's absolute nonsense and doesn't require any respect whatsoever. What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you? What's less special about me than about muslims?
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      > What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person? It's a culture thing. Like.. why do some innocent (to us) gestures in Japan cause offence? It appears inexplicable. > What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you? What if your whole street is made uncomfortable by me wearing my hat backwards - but don't want to kill me for it. Is me walking up and down the street for a day with my hat on backwards a particularly good way to denounce you? I'd argue there are better ways; like exposing you to the wider world (obviously, the solution to extremism is a harder problem)
      - tome 16y ago
        Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates. I see it as an attempt for us as a liberal society to join in an affirmation of our principles. Perhaps others will be offended, but uniting as a society around our treasured values is more important. Bringing the moderate muslims into the fold can happen later, once we're sure that our fold actually exists and is what we think it is (tolerant and liberal).
        ErrantX 16y ago
        > Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates. Sorry, that was just an example of IMO a better way to react to your hypothetical extremism. It was a bad one but I was trying to avoid suggesting reporting you to the police (which was a worse one :P). i.e. it was a solution rather than a "show". In terms of a real solution to this problem.. well clearly the most sensible one is to ignore the majority of the threats (it avoids propagating fear and forces the extremists out of the limelight - one of their greatest weapons).

by ErrantX 16y ago

tome 16y ago

Frankly I don't care if anyone is anti-western, so long as "anti-western" means "anti people who are harmlessly drawing pictures". If someone is "anti-western" because of exploitative child labour, pillaging natural resources of the third world, etc. then great, let's sit down and talk. But harmlessly drawing pictures? Come on.

ErrantX 16y ago
Frankly I don't care if anyone is anti-western, so long as "anti-western" means "anti people who are harmlessly drawing pictures". What I'm trying to say is that the profile of the US (the general symbol of Westernism in Islamic states) is already extremely low. A lot of people consider the US rude and intolerant; that's just the image that has unfortunately developed. Ordinary people in those states are probably looking at this and thinking "well this just proves it doesn't it". I'm not sure alienating people further is a clever idea (us vs. them is one reason why extremism is fostered on both sides). It's not even really about causing offence (as already pointed out, everyone is offended by someone) but about "proving" to people in those states we don't really understand the problem... This is pitched as sticking a finger up to extremists; a sentiment I utterly agree with. What it actually is is feeding them ammunition, and potentially causing more resentment in Mulsim countries. I can't help feeling there is a better way to stick that finger up :) Also; this stinks of fear to me.
- tome 16y ago
  I don't think we do understand the problem. What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person? It's absolute nonsense and doesn't require any respect whatsoever. What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you? What's less special about me than about muslims?
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    > What is understandable about being offended when someone draws a picture of a person? It's a culture thing. Like.. why do some innocent (to us) gestures in Japan cause offence? It appears inexplicable. > What if I'm offended when you wear your hat backwards and threaten to kill you? What if your whole street is made uncomfortable by me wearing my hat backwards - but don't want to kill me for it. Is me walking up and down the street for a day with my hat on backwards a particularly good way to denounce you? I'd argue there are better ways; like exposing you to the wider world (obviously, the solution to extremism is a harder problem)
    - tome 16y ago
      Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates. I see it as an attempt for us as a liberal society to join in an affirmation of our principles. Perhaps others will be offended, but uniting as a society around our treasured values is more important. Bringing the moderate muslims into the fold can happen later, once we're sure that our fold actually exists and is what we think it is (tolerant and liberal).
      - ErrantX 16y ago
        > Hmm, I don't see this as an attempt to expose muslim extremists to muslim moderates. Sorry, that was just an example of IMO a better way to react to your hypothetical extremism. It was a bad one but I was trying to avoid suggesting reporting you to the police (which was a worse one :P). i.e. it was a solution rather than a "show". In terms of a real solution to this problem.. well clearly the most sensible one is to ignore the majority of the threats (it avoids propagating fear and forces the extremists out of the limelight - one of their greatest weapons).