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I agree, it's not very charitable. But remember we are also very isolated from the conflict in Europe-- the whole culture is getting rocked over how Islam funct

I agree, it's not very charitable. But remember we are also very isolated from the conflict in Europe-- the whole culture is getting rocked over how Islam functions in a modern society. My uncle in France has friends who describe themselves as "christian atheists" -- they are still 100% athiest, but apparently they miss the influence of Christianity. As a Christian I certainly don't like Jesus constantly being mocked -- but I also think he is perfectly capable of defending himself. Christianity has a clear response. Jesus is our hero. When he was mocked, tortured and murdered he laid down his life. Most of his closest followers died in the same way. The whole question is central to Christianity. Does anyone have any examples of a concise response that a "peace-loving Muslim" might give to an "extremist Muslim?" ... why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?

potatolicious 16y ago
> "...why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?" The same way Christians should be constantly and publicly apologetic for the crazy abortion clinic bombers? My impression from Muslim friends is that they do, but internally - and I can't blame them. Muslims face an increasingly cold attitude from people in America, and unity against the face of discrimination is important. Without speaking from personal experience, I suspect that nobody wants to get into an internal witch-hunt (who's the extremist bomber?!) that will simply fracture the community. Perhaps they would be more willing to speak out against extremists if they thought the rest of their country had their backs. But let's face it - looking at this discussion (and knowing that attitudes in the general population is markedly worse), we don't. The moderates are between a rock and a hard place - on one side a public that fears and loathes them, and on the other a bunch of murderous fiends that look like them, and claim to be one of them.
- oldgregg 16y ago
  Actually Christians do seem to constantly apologize and distance themselves from Christians with whom they disagree. Every time Pat Robertson opens his mouth you'll see swarms of Christians clarifying THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE. I think "fracturing the community" is great if it means promoting what is just and right. It seems Muslims have a much harder time being critical of their own religion and it may actually be the cause of many of the problems.
iuguy 16y ago
Being married to one (and being a panentheist from a Protestant and Catholic Northern Irish family) I can tell you that my wife doesn't like pictures of the prophet Muhammed because in their religion, the prophet is the messenger, not the message. It's as much a part of their religion as making the old joke about Jesus walking into a bar with two planks of wood and some nails and asking if he could be put up for the night. While it's fun for some to mock part of someone elses religion and I absolutely advocate free speech we need to see this as what it is. It's trolling. If you want to stick it to the extremists then do something the moderates can unite with you against them. No moderate could support EDMD because it specifically goes against the teachings of one of their holy books. Rather than ask for a response that a peace loving muslim might give an extremist muslim, ask yourself what a peace loving Christian would give by way of a response to an extremist Christian should Jesus be mocked. There you will find your answer. Interestingly (or perhaps not) this doesn't just apply to Mohammed. This applies to all prophets in Islam, including Jesus and Moses. It's because idolatry is the worship of something other than god and to muslims there is only the one god, although he's the same god as the god in all Abrahamic faiths, just interpreted differently.
- oldgregg 16y ago
  I thought I just gave a response. Christianity has a clear example of how to respond to persecution in that God sacrificed himself for others. This doesn't give me a better understanding of the Islamic perspective.
berntb 16y ago
>>"christian atheists" -- they are still 100% atheist, but apparently they miss the influence of Christianity. The French got their church out of their daily lives -- and don't seem exactly nostalgic for its influence... I'd guess they use the term to mean that they come from a culture with Christian influences. (I call myself "Protestant atheist".)

potatolicious 16y ago

> "...why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?" The same way Christians should be constantly and publicly apologetic for the crazy abortion clinic bombers? My impression from Muslim friends is that they do, but internally - and I can't blame them. Muslims face an increasingly cold attitude from people in America, and unity against the face of discrimination is important. Without speaking from personal experience, I suspect that nobody wants to get into an internal witch-hunt (who's the extremist bomber?!) that will simply fracture the community. Perhaps they would be more willing to speak out against extremists if they thought the rest of their country had their backs. But let's face it - looking at this discussion (and knowing that attitudes in the general population is markedly worse), we don't. The moderates are between a rock and a hard place - on one side a public that fears and loathes them, and on the other a bunch of murderous fiends that look like them, and claim to be one of them.

oldgregg 16y ago
Actually Christians do seem to constantly apologize and distance themselves from Christians with whom they disagree. Every time Pat Robertson opens his mouth you'll see swarms of Christians clarifying THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE. I think "fracturing the community" is great if it means promoting what is just and right. It seems Muslims have a much harder time being critical of their own religion and it may actually be the cause of many of the problems.

iuguy 16y ago

Being married to one (and being a panentheist from a Protestant and Catholic Northern Irish family) I can tell you that my wife doesn't like pictures of the prophet Muhammed because in their religion, the prophet is the messenger, not the message. It's as much a part of their religion as making the old joke about Jesus walking into a bar with two planks of wood and some nails and asking if he could be put up for the night. While it's fun for some to mock part of someone elses religion and I absolutely advocate free speech we need to see this as what it is. It's trolling. If you want to stick it to the extremists then do something the moderates can unite with you against them. No moderate could support EDMD because it specifically goes against the teachings of one of their holy books. Rather than ask for a response that a peace loving muslim might give an extremist muslim, ask yourself what a peace loving Christian would give by way of a response to an extremist Christian should Jesus be mocked. There you will find your answer. Interestingly (or perhaps not) this doesn't just apply to Mohammed. This applies to all prophets in Islam, including Jesus and Moses. It's because idolatry is the worship of something other than god and to muslims there is only the one god, although he's the same god as the god in all Abrahamic faiths, just interpreted differently.

oldgregg 16y ago
I thought I just gave a response. Christianity has a clear example of how to respond to persecution in that God sacrificed himself for others. This doesn't give me a better understanding of the Islamic perspective.

berntb 16y ago

>>"christian atheists" -- they are still 100% atheist, but apparently they miss the influence of Christianity. The French got their church out of their daily lives -- and don't seem exactly nostalgic for its influence... I'd guess they use the term to mean that they come from a culture with Christian influences. (I call myself "Protestant atheist".)