3 ms·

The Substrate VM is still not open source, correct? Are there plans to do so in the near future?

by jcdavis 10y ago

aseipp 10y ago
Yes, according to Chris Seaton, one of the main Graal developers (lead, even?) a month or so ago, Substrate VM will be released to the public, sometime Real Soon in early 2017: http://lists.ruby-lang.org/pipermail/jruby/2017-January/000511.html http://lists.ruby-lang.org/pipermail/jruby/2017-January/0005... Of course it doesn't clarify the licensing. But it seems like the bulk of basically all of Graal and Truffle are under the GPL and I do believe that with JVMCI, etc, making it into JDK 9 -- it seems like a pretty good bet all this will eventually be openly available. So I'm hoping for the same to be true of SubstrateVM, though I think it's in a slightly different place than Graal (Graal/Truffle are really just .jar libraries you put in the Classpath of your JVMCI-enabled JDK; they do not fork the JDK. But Substrate is clearly something else entirely, since it 'shrink wraps' your code with the JVM itself in a way). I actually just started playing with Graal yesterday, so I'm looking forward to seeing Substrate being released.
nirvdrum 10y ago
That's correct. The script used to generate the compiled binary is open and you can play around with that per the terms of the OTN license, but the SVM itself is closed source. There aren't currently any plans to change that.
- aseipp 10y ago
  Well, apparently I'm eating my words in my sibling comment. That's incredibly disappointing, really. (I suppose I'm already having enough fun with Graal though, so I'll temper my sadness!) Just to be clear: when you refer to the 'compiled binary', what binary are you referring to exactly? Is this the 'aot-image' tool inside the Graal OTN builds I was looking at? It was not clear to me if that was actually the Substrate tool or not, because the documentation is very vague[1] -- can any Graal-based language use that tool to test better startup times, etc? Clearly if SVM is going to remain closed source, I'll have to continue to mostly ignore it (as I've done since I followed Graal), but it would be at least nice to see it "In Action" and what it does to the warm-up time, with my own eyes... [1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/oracle-labs/program-languages/overview/index-2301583.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/oracle-labs/program-langua...
  - nirvdrum 10y ago
    The "compiled binary" I was referring to your compiled interpreter. The aot-image tools in the GraalVM distribution is just a bash script that sets up a bunch of options to control the AOT compiler (also called the boot image generator). If you look at the end of the aot-image script, you can see how the boot image generator is ultimately invoked. The output product of this script is a static binary of a Truffle language interpreter (we don't AOT guest programs -- those will be run in the AOT compiled interpreter) Out of the box, the aot-image script has support for building Graal.js and TruffleRuby images/binaries, but you could modify the script to build whatever Truffle language you'd like. This is just our first release of the SVM and those are the two languages we've tested. As the SVM is fairly young and under active development, it's possible you'll encounter missing functionality. But we do have at least one community member on the graal-dev [1] mailing list trying it out. I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. [1] -- http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/graal-dev/ http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/graal-dev/
    - aseipp 10y ago
      Thanks, that makes a lot more sense. (I understood Substrate AOT'd the actual Truffle-based interpreter, not guest programs that run in that interpreter, but wasn't sure exactly what tooling you meant). I'll peek inside aot-image when I get a chance. > I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. I'll keep my fingers crossed, then! SVM is honestly one of the most exciting components. So if I try it and I have any problems, I'll definitely let graal-dev know.
    - hvis 10y ago
      > I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. Then there are no reasons to expect it to be open, as long as it's commercially viable to sell it. This is Oracle we're talking about. Not a company known for its love for F/OSS.
      - 10y ago

The Substrate VM is still not open source, correct? Are there plans to do so in the near future?

by jcdavis 10y ago

The Substrate VM is still not open source, correct? Are there plans to do so in the near future?

Yes, according to Chris Seaton, one of the main Graal developers (lead, even?) a month or so ago, Substrate VM will be released to the public, sometime Real Soon in early 2017: http://lists.ruby-lang.org/pipermail/jruby/2017-January/000511.html http://lists.ruby-lang.org/pipermail/jruby/2017-January/0005... Of course it doesn't clarify the licensing. But it seems like the bulk of basically all of Graal and Truffle are under the GPL and I do believe that with JVMCI, etc, making it into JDK 9 -- it seems like a pretty good bet all this will eventually be openly available. So I'm hoping for the same to be true of SubstrateVM, though I think it's in a slightly different place than Graal (Graal/Truffle are really just .jar libraries you put in the Classpath of your JVMCI-enabled JDK; they do not fork the JDK. But Substrate is clearly something else entirely, since it 'shrink wraps' your code with the JVM itself in a way). I actually just started playing with Graal yesterday, so I'm looking forward to seeing Substrate being released.

nirvdrum 10y ago

That's correct. The script used to generate the compiled binary is open and you can play around with that per the terms of the OTN license, but the SVM itself is closed source. There aren't currently any plans to change that.

aseipp 10y ago
Well, apparently I'm eating my words in my sibling comment. That's incredibly disappointing, really. (I suppose I'm already having enough fun with Graal though, so I'll temper my sadness!) Just to be clear: when you refer to the 'compiled binary', what binary are you referring to exactly? Is this the 'aot-image' tool inside the Graal OTN builds I was looking at? It was not clear to me if that was actually the Substrate tool or not, because the documentation is very vague[1] -- can any Graal-based language use that tool to test better startup times, etc? Clearly if SVM is going to remain closed source, I'll have to continue to mostly ignore it (as I've done since I followed Graal), but it would be at least nice to see it "In Action" and what it does to the warm-up time, with my own eyes... [1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/oracle-labs/program-languages/overview/index-2301583.html http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/oracle-labs/program-langua...
- nirvdrum 10y ago
  The "compiled binary" I was referring to your compiled interpreter. The aot-image tools in the GraalVM distribution is just a bash script that sets up a bunch of options to control the AOT compiler (also called the boot image generator). If you look at the end of the aot-image script, you can see how the boot image generator is ultimately invoked. The output product of this script is a static binary of a Truffle language interpreter (we don't AOT guest programs -- those will be run in the AOT compiled interpreter) Out of the box, the aot-image script has support for building Graal.js and TruffleRuby images/binaries, but you could modify the script to build whatever Truffle language you'd like. This is just our first release of the SVM and those are the two languages we've tested. As the SVM is fairly young and under active development, it's possible you'll encounter missing functionality. But we do have at least one community member on the graal-dev [1] mailing list trying it out. I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. [1] -- http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/graal-dev/ http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/graal-dev/
  - aseipp 10y ago
    Thanks, that makes a lot more sense. (I understood Substrate AOT'd the actual Truffle-based interpreter, not guest programs that run in that interpreter, but wasn't sure exactly what tooling you meant). I'll peek inside aot-image when I get a chance. > I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. I'll keep my fingers crossed, then! SVM is honestly one of the most exciting components. So if I try it and I have any problems, I'll definitely let graal-dev know.
  - hvis 10y ago
    > I can't say whether the SVM will remain closed or not. I really don't know. There just currently aren't any plans to open it. Then there are no reasons to expect it to be open, as long as it's commercially viable to sell it. This is Oracle we're talking about. Not a company known for its love for F/OSS.
    - 10y ago