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You have no business apologizing for anyone else. Muslims that are offended need to get over it. They will if we don't treat them like delicate children.

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- mike_organon 16y ago
  I disagree. If millions of Muslims didn't get offended and expect the civilized world to cave in, there wouldn't be riots and the death threats would be just from "some individuals" rather than Muslims. When adults speak freely, some will get offended. It's actually a certain amount of respect, expecting Muslims to act like rational adults to criticism or silly drawings, rather than hiding our adult words when they are around.
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    - tome 16y ago
      I don't think anyone (sensible) is suggesting that it's OK to go out of one's way to offend muslims. The point is that some things are more important than avoiding offending people (particularly, I might add, over something so ridiculous as drawing a picture).
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        tome 16y ago
        Those ones would fall outside the "sensible" category. I'm not interested in defending random nutters on Facebook, but if you can point me to an example of "suggesting that going out of one's way to offend all Muslim's is a good idea, and that they all deserve it because some Muslims are violent assholes" then I'll be happy to debate it with you.
    - scott_s 16y ago
      Downmods here do not necessarily indicate offense. Here they're used as a signal to the poster "that's not the level of discourse we expect."
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        tome 16y ago
        No, that's not the case at all. We just happen to value freedom of expression above anyone else's avoidance of offence.
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        tome 16y ago
        You're really missing the point. The aim is not to insult muslims. The aim is to speak freely. Muslims being offended is a regrettable side issue, and frankly, the muslims themselves are in control of whether they are offended or not: there's no reason they should be.
        deleted 16y ago
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        tome 16y ago
        No, it's not designed to insult muslims. This is a completely mistaken impression. Given that you have that impression, I understand why you reacted the way you did, but your impression is incorrect. It's like saying that when I use a gun to defend my house from a burglar wearing a red hat, that my aim is to kill people with red hats. Completely missing the point. The aim of this movement is to defend free speech (my house) from extremists (burglars) not people who happen to be muslim (wear red hats).
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oldgregg 16y ago
I agree, it's not very charitable. But remember we are also very isolated from the conflict in Europe-- the whole culture is getting rocked over how Islam functions in a modern society. My uncle in France has friends who describe themselves as "christian atheists" -- they are still 100% athiest, but apparently they miss the influence of Christianity. As a Christian I certainly don't like Jesus constantly being mocked -- but I also think he is perfectly capable of defending himself. Christianity has a clear response. Jesus is our hero. When he was mocked, tortured and murdered he laid down his life. Most of his closest followers died in the same way. The whole question is central to Christianity. Does anyone have any examples of a concise response that a "peace-loving Muslim" might give to an "extremist Muslim?" ... why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?
- potatolicious 16y ago
  > "...why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?" The same way Christians should be constantly and publicly apologetic for the crazy abortion clinic bombers? My impression from Muslim friends is that they do, but internally - and I can't blame them. Muslims face an increasingly cold attitude from people in America, and unity against the face of discrimination is important. Without speaking from personal experience, I suspect that nobody wants to get into an internal witch-hunt (who's the extremist bomber?!) that will simply fracture the community. Perhaps they would be more willing to speak out against extremists if they thought the rest of their country had their backs. But let's face it - looking at this discussion (and knowing that attitudes in the general population is markedly worse), we don't. The moderates are between a rock and a hard place - on one side a public that fears and loathes them, and on the other a bunch of murderous fiends that look like them, and claim to be one of them.
  - oldgregg 16y ago
    Actually Christians do seem to constantly apologize and distance themselves from Christians with whom they disagree. Every time Pat Robertson opens his mouth you'll see swarms of Christians clarifying THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE. I think "fracturing the community" is great if it means promoting what is just and right. It seems Muslims have a much harder time being critical of their own religion and it may actually be the cause of many of the problems.
saikat 16y ago
People get offended by things whether you like it or not. It's extreme to make death threats, but it's also extreme and fairly despicable to go out of your way to offend an entire group of people simply because a subset of those people are acting extremely. If someone punches me in the face for making lewd comments about his mother, is it constructive to then go around making lewd comments about anyone's mother who thinks that these comments are offensive? I think the organizers of this event are free to do what they want, but it's still a pretty tasteless thing to do. And if people take this as a reflection on all atheists, it DOES make us all look bad.
all_elements 16y ago
It is one thing to have the right to free speech and another thing to exercise it. Most people show restraint all the time (don't criticize excessively, highlight the positives in your kid, tell your wife/GF that she is looking good on a bad hair day, etc.). Why is it so hard to extend the same courtesy to Muslims?
- tome 16y ago
  Nobody's suggesting we personally thrust picutures of Mohammed in the faces of muslims. Posting something on the internet (or broadcasting a TV show) that no-one has to see if they don't want to is something entirely different.
spoondan 16y ago
They will if we don't treat them like delicate children. That's abject nonsense. Intentionally offending people doesn't make them grow up. It makes them feel aggrieved.
- tome 16y ago
  You're really missing the point. This isn't about intentionally offending people. (I acknowledge that many idiots on the Facebook page were intentionally offending people) But what this is really about is intentionally defending our freedom of speech whilst at the same time accepting the necessary, but unintentional, side effect of offending people. But frankly, who cares? These people can choose whether or not to be offended by this. If they think we're stupid so be it, they don't have to engage with us.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    I don't understand why publishing pictures of Mohammad stops being offensive to Muslims when it becomes part of a political demonstration. What's childish is the notion that there's no cost to offending people, or that the cost must not matter because there's a principle attached to it. You have free speech whether or not you choose to use it to offend Muslims. Muslims will tolerate your free speech, because that's the social contract, and we enforce the social contract with the enormous, virtually unstoppable resources of Western Civilization. We knew that before this demonstration, we'll know it afterwards. The only thing that's going to change is that many tens of thousands of people will be pointlessly alienated so that people like you can feel good about themselves.
    - tome 16y ago
      I didn't say it wasn't offensive. I said it wasn't intentionally offensive. NB that is different from knowing it would cause offence. Of course we did, but it was an unavoidable side effect of our defence of free speech. The only thing that's going to change is that many tens of thousands of people will be pointlessly alienated I disagree with that. I hope that -- and the reason I support this movement is that -- we will all feel stronger as a society which values freedom of expression. It certainly was not about feeling good about myself. I feel bad about offending anyone, but I think demonstrating our belief in free speech is more important.
tptacek 16y ago
No. Muslims who are offended do not need to "get over it". They can be as offended and alienated as they want. The only thing they need to do is uphold our social contracts, none of which require them to be OK with people intentionally offending their religion. That's the problem with this plan. It doesn't recognize the degrees of antagonism involved. It posits that there is "being OK with cartoons of Mohammad" and "being so not ok with those cartoons as to be incompatible with civilization", and excludes the vast middle ground. Or, to the extent that it acknowledges that there is a middle, it posits that any social or cultural price is worth paying to demonstrate that we can't be pushed around by a tiny, virtually powerless minority whose actions aren't in any way influenced by these cartoons anyways.
- berntb 16y ago
  >>The only thing they need to do is uphold our social contracts, none of which require them to be OK with people intentionally offending their religion. The social contracts are codified in our laws. And the laws says that blasphemy is legal. The other, Christian, side of the Swedish krona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_%28exhibition%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_%28exhibition%29
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    > The social contracts are codified in our laws. And the laws says that blasphemy is legal. And those laws, equally, don't say that it is illegal to be offended by blasphemy. As much as I would fight for the right of people to draw Mohammed I would fight for an individual Muslims right to feel offended by that drawing.
    - bloch 16y ago
      Nobody protests against the right of individual muslims to feel offended. People protest against the tendency for (some) muslims to try to impose their religious rules on nonbelievers by actual violence and the threat of violence. In the wider perspective this is a protest against the tendency to silence criticism of religions (or anything else) by using violence against the critics.

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mike_organon 16y ago
I disagree. If millions of Muslims didn't get offended and expect the civilized world to cave in, there wouldn't be riots and the death threats would be just from "some individuals" rather than Muslims. When adults speak freely, some will get offended. It's actually a certain amount of respect, expecting Muslims to act like rational adults to criticism or silly drawings, rather than hiding our adult words when they are around.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - tome 16y ago
    I don't think anyone (sensible) is suggesting that it's OK to go out of one's way to offend muslims. The point is that some things are more important than avoiding offending people (particularly, I might add, over something so ridiculous as drawing a picture).
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
      - tome 16y ago
        Those ones would fall outside the "sensible" category. I'm not interested in defending random nutters on Facebook, but if you can point me to an example of "suggesting that going out of one's way to offend all Muslim's is a good idea, and that they all deserve it because some Muslims are violent assholes" then I'll be happy to debate it with you.
  - scott_s 16y ago
    Downmods here do not necessarily indicate offense. Here they're used as a signal to the poster "that's not the level of discourse we expect."
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
      - tome 16y ago
        No, that's not the case at all. We just happen to value freedom of expression above anyone else's avoidance of offence.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 16y ago
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        tome 16y ago
        You're really missing the point. The aim is not to insult muslims. The aim is to speak freely. Muslims being offended is a regrettable side issue, and frankly, the muslims themselves are in control of whether they are offended or not: there's no reason they should be.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        tome 16y ago
        No, it's not designed to insult muslims. This is a completely mistaken impression. Given that you have that impression, I understand why you reacted the way you did, but your impression is incorrect. It's like saying that when I use a gun to defend my house from a burglar wearing a red hat, that my aim is to kill people with red hats. Completely missing the point. The aim of this movement is to defend free speech (my house) from extremists (burglars) not people who happen to be muslim (wear red hats).
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 16y ago

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oldgregg 16y ago

I agree, it's not very charitable. But remember we are also very isolated from the conflict in Europe-- the whole culture is getting rocked over how Islam functions in a modern society. My uncle in France has friends who describe themselves as "christian atheists" -- they are still 100% athiest, but apparently they miss the influence of Christianity. As a Christian I certainly don't like Jesus constantly being mocked -- but I also think he is perfectly capable of defending himself. Christianity has a clear response. Jesus is our hero. When he was mocked, tortured and murdered he laid down his life. Most of his closest followers died in the same way. The whole question is central to Christianity. Does anyone have any examples of a concise response that a "peace-loving Muslim" might give to an "extremist Muslim?" ... why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?

potatolicious 16y ago
> "...why do more Muslims not speak out more often against extremists?" The same way Christians should be constantly and publicly apologetic for the crazy abortion clinic bombers? My impression from Muslim friends is that they do, but internally - and I can't blame them. Muslims face an increasingly cold attitude from people in America, and unity against the face of discrimination is important. Without speaking from personal experience, I suspect that nobody wants to get into an internal witch-hunt (who's the extremist bomber?!) that will simply fracture the community. Perhaps they would be more willing to speak out against extremists if they thought the rest of their country had their backs. But let's face it - looking at this discussion (and knowing that attitudes in the general population is markedly worse), we don't. The moderates are between a rock and a hard place - on one side a public that fears and loathes them, and on the other a bunch of murderous fiends that look like them, and claim to be one of them.
- oldgregg 16y ago
  Actually Christians do seem to constantly apologize and distance themselves from Christians with whom they disagree. Every time Pat Robertson opens his mouth you'll see swarms of Christians clarifying THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE. I think "fracturing the community" is great if it means promoting what is just and right. It seems Muslims have a much harder time being critical of their own religion and it may actually be the cause of many of the problems.

saikat 16y ago

People get offended by things whether you like it or not. It's extreme to make death threats, but it's also extreme and fairly despicable to go out of your way to offend an entire group of people simply because a subset of those people are acting extremely. If someone punches me in the face for making lewd comments about his mother, is it constructive to then go around making lewd comments about anyone's mother who thinks that these comments are offensive? I think the organizers of this event are free to do what they want, but it's still a pretty tasteless thing to do. And if people take this as a reflection on all atheists, it DOES make us all look bad.

all_elements 16y ago

It is one thing to have the right to free speech and another thing to exercise it. Most people show restraint all the time (don't criticize excessively, highlight the positives in your kid, tell your wife/GF that she is looking good on a bad hair day, etc.). Why is it so hard to extend the same courtesy to Muslims?

tome 16y ago
Nobody's suggesting we personally thrust picutures of Mohammed in the faces of muslims. Posting something on the internet (or broadcasting a TV show) that no-one has to see if they don't want to is something entirely different.

spoondan 16y ago

They will if we don't treat them like delicate children. That's abject nonsense. Intentionally offending people doesn't make them grow up. It makes them feel aggrieved.

tome 16y ago
You're really missing the point. This isn't about intentionally offending people. (I acknowledge that many idiots on the Facebook page were intentionally offending people) But what this is really about is intentionally defending our freedom of speech whilst at the same time accepting the necessary, but unintentional, side effect of offending people. But frankly, who cares? These people can choose whether or not to be offended by this. If they think we're stupid so be it, they don't have to engage with us.
- tptacek 16y ago
  I don't understand why publishing pictures of Mohammad stops being offensive to Muslims when it becomes part of a political demonstration. What's childish is the notion that there's no cost to offending people, or that the cost must not matter because there's a principle attached to it. You have free speech whether or not you choose to use it to offend Muslims. Muslims will tolerate your free speech, because that's the social contract, and we enforce the social contract with the enormous, virtually unstoppable resources of Western Civilization. We knew that before this demonstration, we'll know it afterwards. The only thing that's going to change is that many tens of thousands of people will be pointlessly alienated so that people like you can feel good about themselves.
  - tome 16y ago
    I didn't say it wasn't offensive. I said it wasn't intentionally offensive. NB that is different from knowing it would cause offence. Of course we did, but it was an unavoidable side effect of our defence of free speech. The only thing that's going to change is that many tens of thousands of people will be pointlessly alienated I disagree with that. I hope that -- and the reason I support this movement is that -- we will all feel stronger as a society which values freedom of expression. It certainly was not about feeling good about myself. I feel bad about offending anyone, but I think demonstrating our belief in free speech is more important.

tptacek 16y ago

No. Muslims who are offended do not need to "get over it". They can be as offended and alienated as they want. The only thing they need to do is uphold our social contracts, none of which require them to be OK with people intentionally offending their religion. That's the problem with this plan. It doesn't recognize the degrees of antagonism involved. It posits that there is "being OK with cartoons of Mohammad" and "being so not ok with those cartoons as to be incompatible with civilization", and excludes the vast middle ground. Or, to the extent that it acknowledges that there is a middle, it posits that any social or cultural price is worth paying to demonstrate that we can't be pushed around by a tiny, virtually powerless minority whose actions aren't in any way influenced by these cartoons anyways.

berntb 16y ago
>>The only thing they need to do is uphold our social contracts, none of which require them to be OK with people intentionally offending their religion. The social contracts are codified in our laws. And the laws says that blasphemy is legal. The other, Christian, side of the Swedish krona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_%28exhibition%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_%28exhibition%29
- ErrantX 16y ago
  > The social contracts are codified in our laws. And the laws says that blasphemy is legal. And those laws, equally, don't say that it is illegal to be offended by blasphemy. As much as I would fight for the right of people to draw Mohammed I would fight for an individual Muslims right to feel offended by that drawing.
  - bloch 16y ago
    Nobody protests against the right of individual muslims to feel offended. People protest against the tendency for (some) muslims to try to impose their religious rules on nonbelievers by actual violence and the threat of violence. In the wider perspective this is a protest against the tendency to silence criticism of religions (or anything else) by using violence against the critics.