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That kind of begs the question, though. If you read Bernays, he doesn't have a negative opinion of public relations and advertising, and clearly lays down why

That kind of begs the question, though. If you read Bernays, he doesn't have a negative opinion of public relations and advertising, and clearly lays down why they are in fact a service rendered to the public. It makes as much sense to say: propaganda is rooted in advertising and public relations.

dredmorbius 10y ago
NB: raises the question, not begs. Bernays unabashadly used PR and advertising to vile, vile ends, in his professional heyday. He seems to have had something of a change of heart late in life, to the point that he advocated licensing of PR officials, in marked contrast to those he held earlier (also mentioned in this obit): [I]n an interview in 1991, when he turned 100, he said: "Public relations today is horrible. Any dope, any nitwit, any idiot can call him or herself a public relations practitioner." He said he was still consulting with clients and regarded public relations loftily as a "social science."... Around his 100th birthday, he campaigned unsuccessfully to get legislation passed in Massachusetts and other states that would have required the licensing of public-relations practitioners. http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/08/16/specials/bernays-obit.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/08/16/specials/bernays-obit.... Views can change over a lifetime.
- davidivadavid 10y ago
  I think "beg the question" is correct. > 2. assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    What question, specifically, do you see being begged? I remain unpersuaded. http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question-update http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-... Begs the question is a term that comes from formal logic. It’s a translation of the Latin phrase petitio principii, and it's used to mean that someone has made a conclusion based on a premise that lacks support. (1, 2) It can be a premise that's independent from the conclusion (3) or in a simpler form, a premise that’s just a restatement of the conclusion itself. (4,5) ... Begs the question is used wrong a lot. It took me about two seconds to find examples of bad usage in the news. Many people mistakenly believe it's OK to use the phrase to introduce a clever or obvious question.
    - davidivadavid 10y ago
      I'm aware of how the expression is misused. The question being begged is whether "propaganda" is a bad thing in itself. The way I read your argument, you were summoning Bernays to show that since PR and advertising come from propaganda, they're bad by association. The problem is that it's a mischaracterisation of the concept of propaganda as understood by Bernays, who saw it as what we see today as PR, which is much less controversial than what "propaganda" has come to mean through accidents of history. Essentially, that argument is akin to saying "PR (today) is bad, because PR (back then) is bad." Ergo, I see that as begging the question, due to equivocation on the term "propaganda."
      - dredmorbius 10y ago
        No, that's still raising the question of whether or not propaganda is bad. Though that's a fair question. I'll disagree with your assertions and premises, though detailing why is going to take more time and space than I can devote here. I've been researching the question heavily for the past few months and should, the gods willing, be posting something to https://reddit.com/r/dredmorbius https://reddit.com/r/dredmorbius ... eventually.

dredmorbius 10y ago

NB: raises the question, not begs. Bernays unabashadly used PR and advertising to vile, vile ends, in his professional heyday. He seems to have had something of a change of heart late in life, to the point that he advocated licensing of PR officials, in marked contrast to those he held earlier (also mentioned in this obit): [I]n an interview in 1991, when he turned 100, he said: "Public relations today is horrible. Any dope, any nitwit, any idiot can call him or herself a public relations practitioner." He said he was still consulting with clients and regarded public relations loftily as a "social science."... Around his 100th birthday, he campaigned unsuccessfully to get legislation passed in Massachusetts and other states that would have required the licensing of public-relations practitioners. http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/08/16/specials/bernays-obit.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/08/16/specials/bernays-obit.... Views can change over a lifetime.

davidivadavid 10y ago
I think "beg the question" is correct. > 2. assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  What question, specifically, do you see being begged? I remain unpersuaded. http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question-update http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-... Begs the question is a term that comes from formal logic. It’s a translation of the Latin phrase petitio principii, and it's used to mean that someone has made a conclusion based on a premise that lacks support. (1, 2) It can be a premise that's independent from the conclusion (3) or in a simpler form, a premise that’s just a restatement of the conclusion itself. (4,5) ... Begs the question is used wrong a lot. It took me about two seconds to find examples of bad usage in the news. Many people mistakenly believe it's OK to use the phrase to introduce a clever or obvious question.
  - davidivadavid 10y ago
    I'm aware of how the expression is misused. The question being begged is whether "propaganda" is a bad thing in itself. The way I read your argument, you were summoning Bernays to show that since PR and advertising come from propaganda, they're bad by association. The problem is that it's a mischaracterisation of the concept of propaganda as understood by Bernays, who saw it as what we see today as PR, which is much less controversial than what "propaganda" has come to mean through accidents of history. Essentially, that argument is akin to saying "PR (today) is bad, because PR (back then) is bad." Ergo, I see that as begging the question, due to equivocation on the term "propaganda."
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      No, that's still raising the question of whether or not propaganda is bad. Though that's a fair question. I'll disagree with your assertions and premises, though detailing why is going to take more time and space than I can devote here. I've been researching the question heavily for the past few months and should, the gods willing, be posting something to https://reddit.com/r/dredmorbius https://reddit.com/r/dredmorbius ... eventually.