6 ms·

I agree 100% that the working class people in America have been screwed over. But just because they've been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right

by badsock 10y ago

I agree 100% that the working class people in America have been screwed over. But just because they've been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right. Dumb ideas deserve to be attacked. Ideas that are an affront to practically every positive development that dragged us out from under the rule of the oligarchs of the 19th century and the fear-mongering ideologues of the 20th, deserve to be attacked. If that hurts the feelings of those who are promoting them, that's unfortunate, but it's the price of admission if you're trying to exert influence in the public sphere.

flukus 10y ago
> I agree 100% that the working class people in America have been screwed over. But just because they've been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right. The problem is that no one is putting forward better solutions. "The left" is now run by educated elites, not the working class, "the right" might not represent the working class, but at least they don't ignore them.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  A lack of better solutions of on offer (which isn't true by the way, but lets ignore that for a moment) doesn't excuse making terrible choices. The truth is that there are other solutions, but they're seen as troublesome for a number of reasons. Compounding that is the fact that people so dim they'd see value in the "solutions" offered by someone like Trump often aren't aware of the possible solutions that have been considered. It's possible to be the victim of your own desperation, which is just what such people perpetually have been throughout history. Everyone sees that kind of person as a rube, Left, Right, and Center... it's always just a fight for their hearts and minds. By the way the Right doesn't ignore the working class, but they actively hurt them. I somehow doubt that the working class wants that kind of attention.
  - flukus 10y ago
    If your attitude is to keep talking down Trump voters as being idiots don't expect any sympathy from me when Trump gets re-elected. In fact, the more you marginalise them the more radical and United they will get, before you criticize others for acting against their own self interest realise that you're doing the same. > It's possible to be the victim of your own desperation, which is just what such people perpetually have been throughout history. Everyone sees that kind of person as a rube, Left, Right, and Center... it's always just a fight for their hearts and minds. Yes, and the guy offering a bad solution looks better than the guy offering no solution.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      >Yes, and the guy offering a bad solution looks better than the guy offering no solution. People for whom a self-serving lie (what you call a bad solution) is better than no solution deserve what they get. It's just a pity that the rest of us are along for the ride.
      - flukus 10y ago
        Sorry about the edit, but I added this part: In fact, the more you marginalize them the more radical and United they will get, before you criticize others for acting against their own self interest realize that you're doing the same. Your actions are just as self defeating as theirs.
        stevehawk 10y ago
        ding ding ding ding thank you for pointing that out better than i could have.
        EdHominem 10y ago
        Hah, the party that actually tries to make healthcare available is ignoring people... Sure. You're just clinically suggestible and have fallen for the "Only I know what you need" line. You might as well be a well-conditioned battering victim.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        That sounds like a tragic and incorrect lack of personal responsibility to me.
- badsock 10y ago
  They deserve better than to be just "not ignored". The whole game has to be changed so that everything isn't rigged toward the people who are already rich. That means rule of law, that means not fighting against your equally poor immigrant neighbour, that means getting your fair share of the benefits of globalization, not just trying to make it go away. Trump and Co. is exactly opposite of that. If the working class is holding out for great ideas so long as educated people don't propose them, I think that's an unwinnable game. The ideas that work against the concentration of wealth and power are the ones championed by academia, but they have been dismissed as "commies" not matter how unrelated their ideas are to Marxism, or as "elites" despite the fact that they have very little influence or money compared to the corporate class that just got installed in the White House.
  - xapata 10y ago
    Yeah, it's funny how so many people think all college professors are wealthy elites, when many are barely scraping by and have trouble affording health insurance.
- Retra 10y ago
  Plenty of better solutions are being put forward. Nobody listens to them because they come from "educated elites" AKA those people with unique experiences and depth of knowledge necessary to come up with new ideas. If you don't see better solutions, it's because you're actively avoiding them.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > If you don't see better solutions, it's because you're actively avoiding them. Not sure exactly what you're talking about but I've long been a proponent of UBI for instance. But new ideas like this aren't being adopting by the mainstream left and probably won't for some time. You never get any progress without a firebrand to sell the message. The mainstream left seems more interested in playing identity politics as a wedge than coming out with a positive action plan.
    - Retra 10y ago
      That has nothing to do with the "mainstream left", and everything to do with the volatile nature of holding political office in a sound-byte culture. Stop listening to professional campaigners and start listening to professional thinkers. The fact that you even invoked the term "mainstream left" here makes it perfectly clear that you're more than happy playing identity politics. You speak in terms of political labels, not in terms of mechanisms for solving problems.
      - flukus 10y ago
        > That has nothing to do with the "mainstream left", and everything to do with the volatile nature of holding political office in a sound-byte culture. Stop listening to professional campaigners and start listening to professional thinkers. Why? The greatest mind in the world might solve poverty tomorrow but unless they can convince the public they may as well keep it to themselves. Let's also not forget that professional thinkers are often incorrect and disconnected from reality. Support for communism was quite high amongst professional thinkers. Not to mention that professional thinkers these days includes the like of feminist studies professors that are about as regressive as they come.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  That isn't the problem. In the US Sanders put forwards better solutions and in the UK Corbyn does. >"The left" is now run by educated elites The left is under constant and savage attack by the elite ruling classes from all sides, which is why when voters seek out an alternative they are left with the elite's 2nd choice - the far right. The same dynamics occurred in Weimar Germany, who were, much like the UK/US establishment, both relatively socially liberal and incredibly economically repressive, and vicious towards the 'alternative' left wing (KPD).
- mateodelnorte 10y ago
  Heard of a guy named Bernie Sanders?
leereeves 10y ago
Dumb ideas like requiring candidates given H-1B visas to be payed well?
- aeleos 10y ago
  no, that is a perfectly reasonable idea. However, an example of a dumb idea is trying to bring back the coal industry to give people back the jobs that they lost, when things like renewable energies are more cost efficient in the long run and better for the environment.
  - leereeves 10y ago
    I mention H1Bs because it's a direct parallel to the broader immigration issue, yet many people have different opinions on the two. People sponsored for H1Bs by sweat shops are to educated American tech workers as "illegal immigrants" are to American manual laborers: competitors for the same jobs willing to work under worse conditions for much lower wages.
  - gydfi 10y ago
    That's your opinion of a dumb idea. Can you accept that other intelligent, informed, well intentioned people might disagree with you?
    - yorwba 10y ago
      I can, but that means I'm either not intelligent enough, lacking information or not well-intentioned, because why would there be disagreement otherwise? Only one of these can be fixed, and that is by exchanging information. Or in other words: Yes, but you need good arguments to make me change my mind.
      - gydfi 10y ago
        Not at all. Most political disagreements come from perfectly reasonable fundamental disagreements about the way the world ought to be.
echion 10y ago
> just because [the working class has] been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right. Reminds me of: "...the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." -- Chesterton

by badsock 10y ago

flukus 10y ago

> I agree 100% that the working class people in America have been screwed over. But just because they've been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right. The problem is that no one is putting forward better solutions. "The left" is now run by educated elites, not the working class, "the right" might not represent the working class, but at least they don't ignore them.

M_Grey 10y ago
A lack of better solutions of on offer (which isn't true by the way, but lets ignore that for a moment) doesn't excuse making terrible choices. The truth is that there are other solutions, but they're seen as troublesome for a number of reasons. Compounding that is the fact that people so dim they'd see value in the "solutions" offered by someone like Trump often aren't aware of the possible solutions that have been considered. It's possible to be the victim of your own desperation, which is just what such people perpetually have been throughout history. Everyone sees that kind of person as a rube, Left, Right, and Center... it's always just a fight for their hearts and minds. By the way the Right doesn't ignore the working class, but they actively hurt them. I somehow doubt that the working class wants that kind of attention.
- flukus 10y ago
  If your attitude is to keep talking down Trump voters as being idiots don't expect any sympathy from me when Trump gets re-elected. In fact, the more you marginalise them the more radical and United they will get, before you criticize others for acting against their own self interest realise that you're doing the same. > It's possible to be the victim of your own desperation, which is just what such people perpetually have been throughout history. Everyone sees that kind of person as a rube, Left, Right, and Center... it's always just a fight for their hearts and minds. Yes, and the guy offering a bad solution looks better than the guy offering no solution.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    >Yes, and the guy offering a bad solution looks better than the guy offering no solution. People for whom a self-serving lie (what you call a bad solution) is better than no solution deserve what they get. It's just a pity that the rest of us are along for the ride.
    - flukus 10y ago
      Sorry about the edit, but I added this part: In fact, the more you marginalize them the more radical and United they will get, before you criticize others for acting against their own self interest realize that you're doing the same. Your actions are just as self defeating as theirs.
      - stevehawk 10y ago
        ding ding ding ding thank you for pointing that out better than i could have.
        EdHominem 10y ago
        Hah, the party that actually tries to make healthcare available is ignoring people... Sure. You're just clinically suggestible and have fallen for the "Only I know what you need" line. You might as well be a well-conditioned battering victim.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        That sounds like a tragic and incorrect lack of personal responsibility to me.
badsock 10y ago
They deserve better than to be just "not ignored". The whole game has to be changed so that everything isn't rigged toward the people who are already rich. That means rule of law, that means not fighting against your equally poor immigrant neighbour, that means getting your fair share of the benefits of globalization, not just trying to make it go away. Trump and Co. is exactly opposite of that. If the working class is holding out for great ideas so long as educated people don't propose them, I think that's an unwinnable game. The ideas that work against the concentration of wealth and power are the ones championed by academia, but they have been dismissed as "commies" not matter how unrelated their ideas are to Marxism, or as "elites" despite the fact that they have very little influence or money compared to the corporate class that just got installed in the White House.
- xapata 10y ago
  Yeah, it's funny how so many people think all college professors are wealthy elites, when many are barely scraping by and have trouble affording health insurance.
Retra 10y ago
Plenty of better solutions are being put forward. Nobody listens to them because they come from "educated elites" AKA those people with unique experiences and depth of knowledge necessary to come up with new ideas. If you don't see better solutions, it's because you're actively avoiding them.
- flukus 10y ago
  > If you don't see better solutions, it's because you're actively avoiding them. Not sure exactly what you're talking about but I've long been a proponent of UBI for instance. But new ideas like this aren't being adopting by the mainstream left and probably won't for some time. You never get any progress without a firebrand to sell the message. The mainstream left seems more interested in playing identity politics as a wedge than coming out with a positive action plan.
  - Retra 10y ago
    That has nothing to do with the "mainstream left", and everything to do with the volatile nature of holding political office in a sound-byte culture. Stop listening to professional campaigners and start listening to professional thinkers. The fact that you even invoked the term "mainstream left" here makes it perfectly clear that you're more than happy playing identity politics. You speak in terms of political labels, not in terms of mechanisms for solving problems.
    - flukus 10y ago
      > That has nothing to do with the "mainstream left", and everything to do with the volatile nature of holding political office in a sound-byte culture. Stop listening to professional campaigners and start listening to professional thinkers. Why? The greatest mind in the world might solve poverty tomorrow but unless they can convince the public they may as well keep it to themselves. Let's also not forget that professional thinkers are often incorrect and disconnected from reality. Support for communism was quite high amongst professional thinkers. Not to mention that professional thinkers these days includes the like of feminist studies professors that are about as regressive as they come.
crdoconnor 10y ago
That isn't the problem. In the US Sanders put forwards better solutions and in the UK Corbyn does. >"The left" is now run by educated elites The left is under constant and savage attack by the elite ruling classes from all sides, which is why when voters seek out an alternative they are left with the elite's 2nd choice - the far right. The same dynamics occurred in Weimar Germany, who were, much like the UK/US establishment, both relatively socially liberal and incredibly economically repressive, and vicious towards the 'alternative' left wing (KPD).
mateodelnorte 10y ago
Heard of a guy named Bernie Sanders?

leereeves 10y ago

Dumb ideas like requiring candidates given H-1B visas to be payed well?

aeleos 10y ago
no, that is a perfectly reasonable idea. However, an example of a dumb idea is trying to bring back the coal industry to give people back the jobs that they lost, when things like renewable energies are more cost efficient in the long run and better for the environment.
- leereeves 10y ago
  I mention H1Bs because it's a direct parallel to the broader immigration issue, yet many people have different opinions on the two. People sponsored for H1Bs by sweat shops are to educated American tech workers as "illegal immigrants" are to American manual laborers: competitors for the same jobs willing to work under worse conditions for much lower wages.
- gydfi 10y ago
  That's your opinion of a dumb idea. Can you accept that other intelligent, informed, well intentioned people might disagree with you?
  - yorwba 10y ago
    I can, but that means I'm either not intelligent enough, lacking information or not well-intentioned, because why would there be disagreement otherwise? Only one of these can be fixed, and that is by exchanging information. Or in other words: Yes, but you need good arguments to make me change my mind.
    - gydfi 10y ago
      Not at all. Most political disagreements come from perfectly reasonable fundamental disagreements about the way the world ought to be.

echion 10y ago

> just because [the working class has] been wronged doesn't mean that their solutions are right. Reminds me of: "...the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." -- Chesterton