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...which is why that's basically what I suggested. "Red team" and "blue team" are referencing offensive and defensive teams using standard security lingo. In t

...which is why that's basically what I suggested. "Red team" and "blue team" are referencing offensive and defensive teams using standard security lingo. In this case, red team is trying to manipulate and control the public. As another commentator pointed out, it's a little unclear what blue team even should be doing. I avoided just saying "help people avoid manipulation", because the implementation of a defensive strategy might be self-directed manipulation overriding the other manipulation you're exposed to, as it's not necessarily possible to avoid manipulation entirely. (Or even a deairable goal, as you might want to adjust your existing habits.) My main point was that we need to start developing defensive tactics and strategies, because the offense dominated present situation will end in catastrophe.

Natsu 10y ago
Fair enough. The context you intended wasn't apparent to me before.
jdoliner 10y ago
It's a bit confusing in this context, I interpreted "blue team" as Democrat team.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  I realized that after I read the reply, but couldn't edit. C'est la vie.
zardo 10y ago
>As another commentator pointed out, it's a little unclear what blue team even should be doing. If the primary tools of offence are making use of addictive technology and manipulation, the defencive move is making technology available to help people overcome addiction and give direction to their own lives. As you say, self directed manipulation, and I would add introspection. Maybe FOSS tools for cognitive behavioral therapy.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  I generally think there are a few aspects we can do: * Allowing people to intentionally program themselves, as a means of overwriting and weakening offensive programming. In some ways, this cements the status quo, but in others, it allows your interest in "human values" (eg, wanting to be able to converse with family who disagree) to effectively fight back against centralized radicalization. * Collating and rewriting news/information with intentional bias added, but things like dog-whistle phrases removed. Think averaging across a wide set of news to get a "fact sheet", then using something like style transfer to rewrite it in several tones/styles/biases. We can't (and shouldn't) eliminate the spectrum of perspectives, but we can probably clean some of the crap the channels are carrying. The organizational structure to manage that process, though, is a very open question. (My vote is a panel of enemies -- can we get WaPo/NYT and RT and China's people to agree on a system?) Also, people subscribing "across the spectrum" probably are harder to program. * Education and organization. It turns out people are able to do some of these things on their own, if they know they should. I think there's really a range here -- from basic awareness campaigns to things like organizing trade groups and lobbying for ethical guidelines. Arguably, many of the professional psychologists at places like Facebook are engaged in mass-scale, unregulated psychiatry on non-consenting persons. We should call them out on that. * Sort of a subpoint of the previous one, but theoretically you can use red team tactics to forcibly inject awareness of red team tactics. The ethics of this are questionable, so I put it last, and mostly to highlight the need to have a real conversation about ethics, guidelines, and organization. Honestly, I know how to do much of that myself (and would really like to work on it), but "just do it alone" isn't a good solution here because that's just projecting my view on the situation. So my post was partly reaching out to see if other people felt the same and might want to organize. (And particularly people who don't share my views on most issues!)

Natsu 10y ago

Fair enough. The context you intended wasn't apparent to me before.

jdoliner 10y ago

It's a bit confusing in this context, I interpreted "blue team" as Democrat team.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
I realized that after I read the reply, but couldn't edit. C'est la vie.

zardo 10y ago

>As another commentator pointed out, it's a little unclear what blue team even should be doing. If the primary tools of offence are making use of addictive technology and manipulation, the defencive move is making technology available to help people overcome addiction and give direction to their own lives. As you say, self directed manipulation, and I would add introspection. Maybe FOSS tools for cognitive behavioral therapy.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
I generally think there are a few aspects we can do: * Allowing people to intentionally program themselves, as a means of overwriting and weakening offensive programming. In some ways, this cements the status quo, but in others, it allows your interest in "human values" (eg, wanting to be able to converse with family who disagree) to effectively fight back against centralized radicalization. * Collating and rewriting news/information with intentional bias added, but things like dog-whistle phrases removed. Think averaging across a wide set of news to get a "fact sheet", then using something like style transfer to rewrite it in several tones/styles/biases. We can't (and shouldn't) eliminate the spectrum of perspectives, but we can probably clean some of the crap the channels are carrying. The organizational structure to manage that process, though, is a very open question. (My vote is a panel of enemies -- can we get WaPo/NYT and RT and China's people to agree on a system?) Also, people subscribing "across the spectrum" probably are harder to program. * Education and organization. It turns out people are able to do some of these things on their own, if they know they should. I think there's really a range here -- from basic awareness campaigns to things like organizing trade groups and lobbying for ethical guidelines. Arguably, many of the professional psychologists at places like Facebook are engaged in mass-scale, unregulated psychiatry on non-consenting persons. We should call them out on that. * Sort of a subpoint of the previous one, but theoretically you can use red team tactics to forcibly inject awareness of red team tactics. The ethics of this are questionable, so I put it last, and mostly to highlight the need to have a real conversation about ethics, guidelines, and organization. Honestly, I know how to do much of that myself (and would really like to work on it), but "just do it alone" isn't a good solution here because that's just projecting my view on the situation. So my post was partly reaching out to see if other people felt the same and might want to organize. (And particularly people who don't share my views on most issues!)