5 ms·

3-4 months is way too long to spend on that. One month i could just about forgive, but 3-4 month doing something that isn't your real job just to start your rea

3-4 months is way too long to spend on that. One month i could just about forgive, but 3-4 month doing something that isn't your real job just to start your real job isn't some super cool progressive forward thinking initiative - it's just plain stupid.

bitJericho 10y ago
It would take at least 3 or 4 months to even become good at customer service, if you had no experience. They probably wanted employees to be good at CS, for whatever reason.
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  The reason is that the industry in which we work is complicated and full of regulations, and the owner believes that if we really understand our customers we can, as developers, better tend to their needs.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
It's on-the-job training. Most CS degrees don't teach you shit about anticipating the needs of the typical end user.
- lacampbell 10y ago
  I'm not arguing against on the job training. I'm arguing against 3-4 months of on the job training before you can write code.
tzs 10y ago
You could probably get a large part of the benefit of that by just having new developers sit within earshot of the customer support people for a while. That's been my experience when I've sat close enough to hear support calls (although in my case it has always been because of small offices, not because of any deliberate attempt by management to make developers more aware of real customer experiences).
- chris_7 10y ago
  Perhaps, but you'll also have the huge negative of your developers being unable to focus.
  - Scarblac 10y ago
    People hate flexible working spaces where you don't have your own desk, but they have at least this advantage: you can sit near the customer support people to hear some feedback when you can, and sit somewhere quiet when you need focus.
    - chris_7 10y ago
      No giant monitors though? Typically I have the choice of "quiet side room" or "giant monitor at desk".
      - Scarblac 10y ago
        Well I'm only speaking out of personal experience, when I need focus I just need any old screen with fullscreen Emacs running on it, extra screen space just invites distractions. I'm probably a bit of an outlier there...
        chris_7 10y ago
        Depends how frequently you need documentation, and I do iOS so I'm typically running a large iPhone Simulator instance on screen as well.
      - lacampbell 10y ago
        I'll take quiet side room every time. I honestly question our need for giant monitors. The likes of Visual Studio is very wasteful of screen real estate.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    Which was absolutely the case for us, at least for my first 5 years here before we opened up a new wing dedicated to people who are only sporadically on the phone (development staff in one form or another). I'm still distracted in this quieter but still open environment, but it's better than it used to be.
iamatworknow 10y ago
Without going too far into detail our product and industry are a bit more complicated than most. It's not a phone app or a startup in a new industry. Our software is primarily used by independent contractors who are subject to a lot of federal and state regulations. In fact, I'd say that our support staff spends more time in an advocacy role than actually supporting the software itself. So I would disagree when you say it's "not really your job" and "just plain stupid". Our job (as developers) is to create a product that helps our clients navigate a very tricky business environment -- one which most people have never experienced before working here. The time frame of the initial support training and continued learning is justified. That's not to say that our system's perfect, mind you. In the 6-plus years since I was hired the company has gone from around 25 employees to almost 100. My initial training before actually taking support calls lasted about 4 days, then I was thrown into the fire. The current new employees spend like 3 weeks in the classroom before ever picking up a phone, which I think is far too long.

bitJericho 10y ago

It would take at least 3 or 4 months to even become good at customer service, if you had no experience. They probably wanted employees to be good at CS, for whatever reason.

iamatworknow 10y ago
The reason is that the industry in which we work is complicated and full of regulations, and the owner believes that if we really understand our customers we can, as developers, better tend to their needs.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

It's on-the-job training. Most CS degrees don't teach you shit about anticipating the needs of the typical end user.

lacampbell 10y ago
I'm not arguing against on the job training. I'm arguing against 3-4 months of on the job training before you can write code.

tzs 10y ago

You could probably get a large part of the benefit of that by just having new developers sit within earshot of the customer support people for a while. That's been my experience when I've sat close enough to hear support calls (although in my case it has always been because of small offices, not because of any deliberate attempt by management to make developers more aware of real customer experiences).

chris_7 10y ago
Perhaps, but you'll also have the huge negative of your developers being unable to focus.
- Scarblac 10y ago
  People hate flexible working spaces where you don't have your own desk, but they have at least this advantage: you can sit near the customer support people to hear some feedback when you can, and sit somewhere quiet when you need focus.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    No giant monitors though? Typically I have the choice of "quiet side room" or "giant monitor at desk".
    - Scarblac 10y ago
      Well I'm only speaking out of personal experience, when I need focus I just need any old screen with fullscreen Emacs running on it, extra screen space just invites distractions. I'm probably a bit of an outlier there...
      - chris_7 10y ago
        Depends how frequently you need documentation, and I do iOS so I'm typically running a large iPhone Simulator instance on screen as well.
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      I'll take quiet side room every time. I honestly question our need for giant monitors. The likes of Visual Studio is very wasteful of screen real estate.
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  Which was absolutely the case for us, at least for my first 5 years here before we opened up a new wing dedicated to people who are only sporadically on the phone (development staff in one form or another). I'm still distracted in this quieter but still open environment, but it's better than it used to be.

iamatworknow 10y ago

Without going too far into detail our product and industry are a bit more complicated than most. It's not a phone app or a startup in a new industry. Our software is primarily used by independent contractors who are subject to a lot of federal and state regulations. In fact, I'd say that our support staff spends more time in an advocacy role than actually supporting the software itself. So I would disagree when you say it's "not really your job" and "just plain stupid". Our job (as developers) is to create a product that helps our clients navigate a very tricky business environment -- one which most people have never experienced before working here. The time frame of the initial support training and continued learning is justified. That's not to say that our system's perfect, mind you. In the 6-plus years since I was hired the company has gone from around 25 employees to almost 100. My initial training before actually taking support calls lasted about 4 days, then I was thrown into the fire. The current new employees spend like 3 weeks in the classroom before ever picking up a phone, which I think is far too long.