4 ms·

Honest question: How is that a felony? I have multiple profiles on my home machine. Does that make me a felon?

by sosborn 10y ago

mustacheemperor 10y ago
I'm assuming they're referring to the serious felony of lying to border police that you've fully unlocked your phone as requested when in reality you're presenting an artificially limited profile.
- idbehold 10y ago
  I don't know what you mean by "fully unlocked". Is there a legal definition for this? I made available to you more than just the lock screen software of my electronic device by entering a passcode, what more does "fully unlocked" entail (Please cite sources)?
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    An argument like this is fun on the internet, and it might (eventually) help you out in the courtroom. Let us know how it works out for you if the border guard decides that you're trying to make a fool out of him.
Spooky23 10y ago
If you are asked to produce the contents of your property and provide access to a subset of that property, that will be interpreted as either hindering official action or lying to a federal agent. Lying to a federal agent is a felony. From the customs agent and legal point of view, there is no distinction between hiding a secret compartment in your luggage and a device.
- idbehold 10y ago
  They asked him to provide the password, they didn't ask him to produce the contents of his property. > They eventually returned and said they’d release him if he told them the password to unlock his phone. How have I hindered official action or lied to a federal agent by providing one of my passwords?
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    > How have I hindered official action or lied to a federal agent by providing one of my passwords? The same way that your child disobeyed you when you say "Go to bed", and they lay in yours and tell you "You didn't say which bed". Clearly, the border agent wasn't asking for the password to your alternate, fake part of the phone, and they aren't likely to be happy if they figure out that you followed your own interpretation of the letter of the order, rather than an interpretation that conforms to the spirit of the order.
- scintill76 10y ago
  > there is no distinction between hiding a secret compartment in your luggage and a device Is it really illegal to have a secret compartment in your luggage? I mean, I have no doubt it's highly risky and that they will make the case you've done something wrong, but have you inherently done something illegal by merely having a secret compartment? Maybe only if you've explicitly represented that there are no other compartments? Or you've got contraband in there, or something else they've explicitly inquired about that you claimed you don't have? (But that's more about lying or existing laws, than the compartment itself.) If you turned over your phone for inspection and could see they were looking in an app you don't use, are you committing a felony to not volunteer that they should look in the other browser for your real history or whatever? If having two profiles and only providing one is illegal, what about having two phones? (like your "real" one in your luggage, turned off.) Do I have to volunteer that when they asked for "my phone" that I actually have multiple? What if I kept the "real" one at home -- do I have to tell them the one they're looking at is only a subset of my property and doesn't represent what they probably actually meant when they asked for "my phone"? I'm not entirely sure where "the lines" are here, but perhaps the passcode is part of it. Once they require that, they've crossed from dealing with physical items physically crossing the border, passing into things that are in your mind or physically located elsewhere. If they can require a lockscreen code, there's not really any reason they can't require every other password since those are "secret compartments" accessible from your phone, and if just having an undisclosed compartment really is illegal, I guess you'd better volunteer an exhaustive list of all your accounts...
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    If you have a desire to do some civil disobedience re some law that you have a beef with, the customs area of a port of entry is a really bad place to start. In many cases, the customs people have discretion to not admit you for a variety of reasons. There's a tension between the process around physical goods and digital data that isn't clearly understood by the law. Until the law is more firmly established, you're better off not carrying stuff you care about.
- rch 10y ago
  I'm not implying that people should behave in any particular way when asked to provide information to LEOs, only that phones should behave in a certain way when provided with a password. This might provide a level of security to a journalist who has been abducted, for example.
AckSyn 10y ago
The parent poster was talking out their rear. There is no way utilizing such a tool, if it were available, is felonious in nature whatsoever. Having multiple profiles per device and accessible in this manner would be preferable for a number of reasons. Least of which is not wanting anyone else access to your own sensitive information that they have no business looking at to begin with.
jandrese 10y ago
I'm guessing it is under some blanket "intent to deceive border protection official" bullcrap. Immigration has very broad powers, but even then this sort of case would be difficult to make IMHO.
- jrs235 10y ago
  >Immigration has very broad powers, but even then this sort of case would be difficult to make IMHO. I agree. But who has the time and money to defend themselves in court against the unlimited resources of the government?
  - taylodl 10y ago
    That's the purpose fulfilled by advocacy groups such as the ACLU.
    - jrs235 10y ago
      Good point. But can the defendant afford to sit in jail while things are adjudicated?

Honest question: How is that a felony? I have multiple profiles on my home machine. Does that make me a felon?

by sosborn 10y ago

Honest question: How is that a felony? I have multiple profiles on my home machine. Does that make me a felon?

I'm assuming they're referring to the serious felony of lying to border police that you've fully unlocked your phone as requested when in reality you're presenting an artificially limited profile.

idbehold 10y ago
I don't know what you mean by "fully unlocked". Is there a legal definition for this? I made available to you more than just the lock screen software of my electronic device by entering a passcode, what more does "fully unlocked" entail (Please cite sources)?
- khedoros1 10y ago
  An argument like this is fun on the internet, and it might (eventually) help you out in the courtroom. Let us know how it works out for you if the border guard decides that you're trying to make a fool out of him.

Spooky23 10y ago

If you are asked to produce the contents of your property and provide access to a subset of that property, that will be interpreted as either hindering official action or lying to a federal agent. Lying to a federal agent is a felony. From the customs agent and legal point of view, there is no distinction between hiding a secret compartment in your luggage and a device.

idbehold 10y ago
They asked him to provide the password, they didn't ask him to produce the contents of his property. > They eventually returned and said they’d release him if he told them the password to unlock his phone. How have I hindered official action or lied to a federal agent by providing one of my passwords?
- khedoros1 10y ago
  > How have I hindered official action or lied to a federal agent by providing one of my passwords? The same way that your child disobeyed you when you say "Go to bed", and they lay in yours and tell you "You didn't say which bed". Clearly, the border agent wasn't asking for the password to your alternate, fake part of the phone, and they aren't likely to be happy if they figure out that you followed your own interpretation of the letter of the order, rather than an interpretation that conforms to the spirit of the order.
scintill76 10y ago
> there is no distinction between hiding a secret compartment in your luggage and a device Is it really illegal to have a secret compartment in your luggage? I mean, I have no doubt it's highly risky and that they will make the case you've done something wrong, but have you inherently done something illegal by merely having a secret compartment? Maybe only if you've explicitly represented that there are no other compartments? Or you've got contraband in there, or something else they've explicitly inquired about that you claimed you don't have? (But that's more about lying or existing laws, than the compartment itself.) If you turned over your phone for inspection and could see they were looking in an app you don't use, are you committing a felony to not volunteer that they should look in the other browser for your real history or whatever? If having two profiles and only providing one is illegal, what about having two phones? (like your "real" one in your luggage, turned off.) Do I have to volunteer that when they asked for "my phone" that I actually have multiple? What if I kept the "real" one at home -- do I have to tell them the one they're looking at is only a subset of my property and doesn't represent what they probably actually meant when they asked for "my phone"? I'm not entirely sure where "the lines" are here, but perhaps the passcode is part of it. Once they require that, they've crossed from dealing with physical items physically crossing the border, passing into things that are in your mind or physically located elsewhere. If they can require a lockscreen code, there's not really any reason they can't require every other password since those are "secret compartments" accessible from your phone, and if just having an undisclosed compartment really is illegal, I guess you'd better volunteer an exhaustive list of all your accounts...
- Spooky23 10y ago
  If you have a desire to do some civil disobedience re some law that you have a beef with, the customs area of a port of entry is a really bad place to start. In many cases, the customs people have discretion to not admit you for a variety of reasons. There's a tension between the process around physical goods and digital data that isn't clearly understood by the law. Until the law is more firmly established, you're better off not carrying stuff you care about.
rch 10y ago
I'm not implying that people should behave in any particular way when asked to provide information to LEOs, only that phones should behave in a certain way when provided with a password. This might provide a level of security to a journalist who has been abducted, for example.

AckSyn 10y ago

The parent poster was talking out their rear. There is no way utilizing such a tool, if it were available, is felonious in nature whatsoever. Having multiple profiles per device and accessible in this manner would be preferable for a number of reasons. Least of which is not wanting anyone else access to your own sensitive information that they have no business looking at to begin with.

jandrese 10y ago

I'm guessing it is under some blanket "intent to deceive border protection official" bullcrap. Immigration has very broad powers, but even then this sort of case would be difficult to make IMHO.

jrs235 10y ago
>Immigration has very broad powers, but even then this sort of case would be difficult to make IMHO. I agree. But who has the time and money to defend themselves in court against the unlimited resources of the government?
- taylodl 10y ago
  That's the purpose fulfilled by advocacy groups such as the ACLU.
  - jrs235 10y ago
    Good point. But can the defendant afford to sit in jail while things are adjudicated?