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Amazonian earthworks such as these are discussed quite a bit in Charles Mann's 1491, mostly in the context of dual hypotheses that the Amazon (and much of N. an

Amazonian earthworks such as these are discussed quite a bit in Charles Mann's 1491, mostly in the context of dual hypotheses that the Amazon (and much of N. and S. America) was both far more heavily populated, and far more ecologically managed, than previously thought. It's a great and fascinating book, although not as data rich and scholarly as it could be. I don't recall Mann having much description of what the earthworks were used for, although there were suggestions of some of them being fish corrals during high water events, I believe.

bandrami 10y ago
Dang, somebody beat me to 1491. He also suggested some of them were causeways for transportation.
mirimir 10y ago
Thanks! Yes, "both far more heavily populated, and far more ecologically managed", and for a far longer time. Perhaps for as long as 40 kiloyears. But relatively isolated, with just "low-bandwidth" communication with northeast Asia. I wonder why things went so differently in Eurasia. Maybe bronze and iron technology? Jared Diamond stuff?
- kneath 10y ago
  He does go into this a bit. Due to the ecology in the Amazon (a giant mud-filled floodplain), tools and buildings tended to be made of organic materials like wood & fiber rather than rock & metal as was more common in other areas of the world. As such, much of the evidence of these people would have rotted away by the time we started looking. Organic materials rot away real quick in a warm, wet climate.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    OK, right. So ecology and terrain are the only records. Do we have any idea when populations crashed? Could it have been smallpox etc epidemics from European explorers? Edit: Yes, Mann does indeed argue that. And also that isolation prevented tech spreading. I must read that book!
    - kneath 10y ago
      He does have a tremendous amount of (IMO) anecdotal evidence as to when the various populations crashed, but at the end of the day I came away with a simpler conclusion: there just isn't enough reliable evidence to know what did or did not happen, but it seems very plausible there were huge populations of American peoples pre-columbus doing extraordinary things. As per population crashing, his general thesis were: - Disease spreads faster than explorers (people who would create records) - For many reasons, European diseases were more deadly to Americans than American diseases were to Europeans. - It's a lot easier to conquer a people if they are in the midst of an epidemic. Imagine an immune army invading Europe in the midst of the Bubonic Plague. - In South America, severe climate events triggered massive wars that destroyed agriculture, leading to population collapse. As per the tech, I would argue it did spread. Remember corn, potatoes, peppers, tomatoes, avocados, peanuts, sunflowers, and beans all came from Indians. As did the idea of a free people — the basis for America itself! We just don't tend to associate these ideas with "technology" as much as we do wheels and hammers. Much of the Eurasian technology we celebrate today was impractical and unnecessary in the Americas (What good is a wheel if you're climbing the stairs to Machu Picchu? What good is a horse if its hooves rot in the jungle?). All that being said, I would recommend the book even though I have extremely mixed feelings about it. It was one of the most frustrating books I've read in recent memory, but at the same time, the material is extremely fascinating to me. I definitely came away realizing how ridiculous the history of Americas I learned in school was, but I can't say I came away with a better view of what the Americas looked like either. I'm really hoping for more research and writing on this subject — I think we have a lot to learn from the Old Americas, especially wrt to agriculture, agroforestry, and managing wildlands.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      Mann mentions several instances of the following scenario, happening at various times across the Americas: Year X: European explorer #1 sails up a river/crosses mountains/etc and discovers a vast empire, huge cities, and marvelous civilizations that his European nation might trade with. He brings pigs with him and trades them to the natives for their cool stuff. Year X+20: European explorer #2 follows the path of explorer #1. Then he's all "WTF, there's nobody here." But explorer #2 does discover, e.g., the giant earthworks that explorer #1 said were there - it's just the city on top of the earthworks doesn't exist. He postulates that in years X+1 to X+19, the smallpoxalypse occurred and civilization collapsed. The remaining survivors are just roving tribal bands trying to survive in the remains of their old civilization. (To make a fictional analogy, consider the current civilization in Georgia and then consider the civilization depicted on the Walking Dead. Mann's hypothesis is that most of what we know about American Indians consists of observing the Walking Dead and then drawing conclusions about their pre-apocalyptic civilization.)
nickbauman 10y ago
There's another theory floating around: That the bulk of the Amazon rainforest came into existence as a result of a millennia-long silviculture project taken on by the pre-Columbian Amazon people.
- verisimilitude 10y ago
  If that theory is true, it makes me doubly heartsick to witness the deforestation. Thought-provoking, thank you.
tunap 10y ago
I was having a minor fit trying to recall this narrative from the book I read, until I realized 1421 != 1491. Already reserved it at the library, cannot wait to dive in. Hopefully better researched than the other author, but I like plausible fiction, too! 1421:The Year China Discovered The World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies Edit: It seemed familliar b/c I read about it in other book. Conquistador by Levy touches on the underreported civ's and tech in the Americas before the Euros arrived. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2774104-conquistador http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2774104-conquistador
- mirimir 10y ago
  He does idolize Cortés. Not that the Aztecs were any better. Just FYI, the Spanish Requerimiento: http://ciudadseva.com/texto/requerimiento/ http://ciudadseva.com/texto/requerimiento/ Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fciudadseva.com%2Ftexto%2Frequerimiento%2F&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...
ythn 10y ago
> the dual hypotheses that the Amazon (and much of N. and S. America) was both far more heavily populated, and far more ecologically managed, than previously thought. Book of Mormon confirmed, checkmate atheists
- 36bydesign 10y ago
  If they confirm ancient warriors battled while riding tapirs and chariots then back to church for me.

bandrami 10y ago

Dang, somebody beat me to 1491. He also suggested some of them were causeways for transportation.

mirimir 10y ago

Thanks! Yes, "both far more heavily populated, and far more ecologically managed", and for a far longer time. Perhaps for as long as 40 kiloyears. But relatively isolated, with just "low-bandwidth" communication with northeast Asia. I wonder why things went so differently in Eurasia. Maybe bronze and iron technology? Jared Diamond stuff?

kneath 10y ago
He does go into this a bit. Due to the ecology in the Amazon (a giant mud-filled floodplain), tools and buildings tended to be made of organic materials like wood & fiber rather than rock & metal as was more common in other areas of the world. As such, much of the evidence of these people would have rotted away by the time we started looking. Organic materials rot away real quick in a warm, wet climate.
- mirimir 10y ago
  OK, right. So ecology and terrain are the only records. Do we have any idea when populations crashed? Could it have been smallpox etc epidemics from European explorers? Edit: Yes, Mann does indeed argue that. And also that isolation prevented tech spreading. I must read that book!
  - kneath 10y ago
    He does have a tremendous amount of (IMO) anecdotal evidence as to when the various populations crashed, but at the end of the day I came away with a simpler conclusion: there just isn't enough reliable evidence to know what did or did not happen, but it seems very plausible there were huge populations of American peoples pre-columbus doing extraordinary things. As per population crashing, his general thesis were: - Disease spreads faster than explorers (people who would create records) - For many reasons, European diseases were more deadly to Americans than American diseases were to Europeans. - It's a lot easier to conquer a people if they are in the midst of an epidemic. Imagine an immune army invading Europe in the midst of the Bubonic Plague. - In South America, severe climate events triggered massive wars that destroyed agriculture, leading to population collapse. As per the tech, I would argue it did spread. Remember corn, potatoes, peppers, tomatoes, avocados, peanuts, sunflowers, and beans all came from Indians. As did the idea of a free people — the basis for America itself! We just don't tend to associate these ideas with "technology" as much as we do wheels and hammers. Much of the Eurasian technology we celebrate today was impractical and unnecessary in the Americas (What good is a wheel if you're climbing the stairs to Machu Picchu? What good is a horse if its hooves rot in the jungle?). All that being said, I would recommend the book even though I have extremely mixed feelings about it. It was one of the most frustrating books I've read in recent memory, but at the same time, the material is extremely fascinating to me. I definitely came away realizing how ridiculous the history of Americas I learned in school was, but I can't say I came away with a better view of what the Americas looked like either. I'm really hoping for more research and writing on this subject — I think we have a lot to learn from the Old Americas, especially wrt to agriculture, agroforestry, and managing wildlands.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Mann mentions several instances of the following scenario, happening at various times across the Americas: Year X: European explorer #1 sails up a river/crosses mountains/etc and discovers a vast empire, huge cities, and marvelous civilizations that his European nation might trade with. He brings pigs with him and trades them to the natives for their cool stuff. Year X+20: European explorer #2 follows the path of explorer #1. Then he's all "WTF, there's nobody here." But explorer #2 does discover, e.g., the giant earthworks that explorer #1 said were there - it's just the city on top of the earthworks doesn't exist. He postulates that in years X+1 to X+19, the smallpoxalypse occurred and civilization collapsed. The remaining survivors are just roving tribal bands trying to survive in the remains of their old civilization. (To make a fictional analogy, consider the current civilization in Georgia and then consider the civilization depicted on the Walking Dead. Mann's hypothesis is that most of what we know about American Indians consists of observing the Walking Dead and then drawing conclusions about their pre-apocalyptic civilization.)

nickbauman 10y ago

There's another theory floating around: That the bulk of the Amazon rainforest came into existence as a result of a millennia-long silviculture project taken on by the pre-Columbian Amazon people.

verisimilitude 10y ago
If that theory is true, it makes me doubly heartsick to witness the deforestation. Thought-provoking, thank you.

tunap 10y ago

I was having a minor fit trying to recall this narrative from the book I read, until I realized 1421 != 1491. Already reserved it at the library, cannot wait to dive in. Hopefully better researched than the other author, but I like plausible fiction, too! 1421:The Year China Discovered The World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies Edit: It seemed familliar b/c I read about it in other book. Conquistador by Levy touches on the underreported civ's and tech in the Americas before the Euros arrived. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2774104-conquistador http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2774104-conquistador

mirimir 10y ago
He does idolize Cortés. Not that the Aztecs were any better. Just FYI, the Spanish Requerimiento: http://ciudadseva.com/texto/requerimiento/ http://ciudadseva.com/texto/requerimiento/ Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fciudadseva.com%2Ftexto%2Frequerimiento%2F&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

ythn 10y ago

> the dual hypotheses that the Amazon (and much of N. and S. America) was both far more heavily populated, and far more ecologically managed, than previously thought. Book of Mormon confirmed, checkmate atheists

36bydesign 10y ago
If they confirm ancient warriors battled while riding tapirs and chariots then back to church for me.