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I'm disappointed in Munichs' decision-makers in this case. Introducing linux was a great step towards a more open, secure and cost-effective platform to organiz

by thepiwo 10y ago

I'm disappointed in Munichs' decision-makers in this case. Introducing linux was a great step towards a more open, secure and cost-effective platform to organize the city. The reasoning behind switching back to Microsoft is vague to me, the main factors seem general it-problems not related to linux, users wanting to open their .exe and windows programms (wouldn't be allowed with a Microsoft system as well due to security issues) and the fact Microsoft built a new shiny office.

cnkk 10y ago
I think it is because that Microsoft just opened an office in Munich...
- matt4077 10y ago
  I think it may have something to do with whatever makes almost no one choose Linux for desktops.
  - hd4 10y ago
    That 'almost no one' is growing steadily. https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/07/02/184229/linux-grabs-more-than-2-of-desktop-market-share https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/07/02/184229/linux-grabs...
    - misnome 10y ago
      Yes, perhaps one day the 'steady growth' will hit 3%. Perhaps then we can declare the "Year of the Linux desktop".
sveme 10y ago
Here's mschuster91, who worked there, take on the issue from a couple of days ago when it first was posted to hackernews: ------------------ > Does anyone have some examples of the practical problems they experience using Linux, which can't easily be solved in any other way than going to Windows? I worked there. The biggest problems back a few years ago: 1) So-called "Fachverfahren", basically software for stuff like managing drivers' licenses or other bureaucratic procedures, is written and supplied for Windows only. Often enough that meant Munich had to pay a boatload of money for a Linux port. Or the software HAD a Linux port, but for RHEL or other "enterprise linux" crap distros - which meant using stuff like "alien" or, worse, manual repackaging to make them compatible with Ubuntu. Yay for version hell - statically linked programs were an exception. 2) DRIVERS. There's a lot of custom hardware - special printers for printing on documents like ID cards, fingerprint readers for the new national ID cards, RFID readers with support for said ID cards... you won't believe how much stuff there is. And all of this needs to have Linux drivers and tooling. 3) Employee training. Back in my days KDE was used (and I believe it still is), but it's different enough from Windows that people need training. And there's 35k of employees, most of which don't have any IT experience outside from their Windows computer at home. 4) The computers themselves. Let's just say that the computers in any public agency are almost always horribly outdated. Many users complain(ed) about the speed of LiMux, which mostly was caused by old or underpowered (esp. RAM, given that OpenOffice and Firefox are really really memory hungry) systems. 5) Networking. Depends on the building and agency, of course, but e.g. my school was connected via a 16 mbit uplink, over which the entire Internet traffic went... I believe the biggest problem LiMux had and still has is a lack of proper funding - especially for hardware. -------------------- tl;dr: it's more than what you suggested and some very valid reasons. I know some people involved in that decision and let's say it like that: LiMux does not come for free as well. There are plenty of issues that require external consultants for 1500 Euros per day/person which is apparently always an unexpected and unbudgeted expense.
- ams6110 10y ago
  I haven't followed this story but if they deployed an Ubuntu/debian based distro over CentOS/RHEL then they were asking for trouble. In my experience, the commercial vendors who release software for Linux almost always target RedHat-based distros first, and often only.
  - hashhar 10y ago
    And RHEL is also not free. So where do they save money compared to Windows? In that case they will be supporting FOSS but not due to it being good "for them" but out of a moral high ground.
    - snuxoll 10y ago
      Yeah, RHEL is one area I wouldn't spend the money on desktop deployments - CentOS is a much better choice here (it's $300/year for a RHEL Workstation license with support, you can get self-support desktop builds for $50/year but why not just use CentOS at that point).
- antisthenes 10y ago
  35,000 office workers for 1 city? I realize Munich is a pretty big city, but holy crap, that sounds extremely bloated. I can definitely see why they tried to save money on Windows licenses, but perhaps their choice of OS isn't the problem that needed solving in the first place. Maybe their efforts (and money) were better spent on automating many processes (e.g. like you said - printing ID cards should be 100% automated and not require human intervention in most cases) Or maybe it's total employees, and not only people who sit in the office? If I were mayor, I'd seriously look at the bureaucratic bloat required to run the city and trying to make it more efficient (Windows to Linux you just shift money around from licensing to retraining and overhead)
  - germanier 10y ago
    This includes all workers, including childcare, public schools, museums and garbage disposal. The administration itself has around 8000 employees. They do practically all everyday tasks: issue parking fines, marry people, register residents, issue residence permits for foreigners, organize all elections, grant building permits, organize the city's own construction, plan traffic, register cars, and so on. Maybe you can streamline a process here or there but there is not much you can save. Regular ID cards are printed by a central contractor in Berlin (presumably automated). However, emergency ID cards or passports are printed directly in the office with special ink. There is not much you can automate here – it doesn't happen too often but can't be batched as people need them immediately. Just with ID cards I can think of a lot of other specialized hardware: optical scanners for the ID card itself, optical scanner for paper documents, fingerprint readers, contactless readers, automated forgery checkers, and probably more. All of that needs to be supported. I can't think of many processes that still aren't automated that could be. The only thing is that most internal processes where many employees need to work together are still paper based and a file is often transported physically to a couple of people – for example to have a medium-sized contract at least the case worker, their supervisor, the tender office, a lawyer, and the treasury need to have it on their desk. But paper is going to be replaced with an electronic file system soon (but again – that is probably not developed for Linux and needs to be ported).

by thepiwo 10y ago

cnkk 10y ago

I think it is because that Microsoft just opened an office in Munich...

matt4077 10y ago
I think it may have something to do with whatever makes almost no one choose Linux for desktops.
- hd4 10y ago
  That 'almost no one' is growing steadily. https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/07/02/184229/linux-grabs-more-than-2-of-desktop-market-share https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/07/02/184229/linux-grabs...
  - misnome 10y ago
    Yes, perhaps one day the 'steady growth' will hit 3%. Perhaps then we can declare the "Year of the Linux desktop".

sveme 10y ago

Here's mschuster91, who worked there, take on the issue from a couple of days ago when it first was posted to hackernews: ------------------ > Does anyone have some examples of the practical problems they experience using Linux, which can't easily be solved in any other way than going to Windows? I worked there. The biggest problems back a few years ago: 1) So-called "Fachverfahren", basically software for stuff like managing drivers' licenses or other bureaucratic procedures, is written and supplied for Windows only. Often enough that meant Munich had to pay a boatload of money for a Linux port. Or the software HAD a Linux port, but for RHEL or other "enterprise linux" crap distros - which meant using stuff like "alien" or, worse, manual repackaging to make them compatible with Ubuntu. Yay for version hell - statically linked programs were an exception. 2) DRIVERS. There's a lot of custom hardware - special printers for printing on documents like ID cards, fingerprint readers for the new national ID cards, RFID readers with support for said ID cards... you won't believe how much stuff there is. And all of this needs to have Linux drivers and tooling. 3) Employee training. Back in my days KDE was used (and I believe it still is), but it's different enough from Windows that people need training. And there's 35k of employees, most of which don't have any IT experience outside from their Windows computer at home. 4) The computers themselves. Let's just say that the computers in any public agency are almost always horribly outdated. Many users complain(ed) about the speed of LiMux, which mostly was caused by old or underpowered (esp. RAM, given that OpenOffice and Firefox are really really memory hungry) systems. 5) Networking. Depends on the building and agency, of course, but e.g. my school was connected via a 16 mbit uplink, over which the entire Internet traffic went... I believe the biggest problem LiMux had and still has is a lack of proper funding - especially for hardware. -------------------- tl;dr: it's more than what you suggested and some very valid reasons. I know some people involved in that decision and let's say it like that: LiMux does not come for free as well. There are plenty of issues that require external consultants for 1500 Euros per day/person which is apparently always an unexpected and unbudgeted expense.

ams6110 10y ago
I haven't followed this story but if they deployed an Ubuntu/debian based distro over CentOS/RHEL then they were asking for trouble. In my experience, the commercial vendors who release software for Linux almost always target RedHat-based distros first, and often only.
- hashhar 10y ago
  And RHEL is also not free. So where do they save money compared to Windows? In that case they will be supporting FOSS but not due to it being good "for them" but out of a moral high ground.
  - snuxoll 10y ago
    Yeah, RHEL is one area I wouldn't spend the money on desktop deployments - CentOS is a much better choice here (it's $300/year for a RHEL Workstation license with support, you can get self-support desktop builds for $50/year but why not just use CentOS at that point).
antisthenes 10y ago
35,000 office workers for 1 city? I realize Munich is a pretty big city, but holy crap, that sounds extremely bloated. I can definitely see why they tried to save money on Windows licenses, but perhaps their choice of OS isn't the problem that needed solving in the first place. Maybe their efforts (and money) were better spent on automating many processes (e.g. like you said - printing ID cards should be 100% automated and not require human intervention in most cases) Or maybe it's total employees, and not only people who sit in the office? If I were mayor, I'd seriously look at the bureaucratic bloat required to run the city and trying to make it more efficient (Windows to Linux you just shift money around from licensing to retraining and overhead)
- germanier 10y ago
  This includes all workers, including childcare, public schools, museums and garbage disposal. The administration itself has around 8000 employees. They do practically all everyday tasks: issue parking fines, marry people, register residents, issue residence permits for foreigners, organize all elections, grant building permits, organize the city's own construction, plan traffic, register cars, and so on. Maybe you can streamline a process here or there but there is not much you can save. Regular ID cards are printed by a central contractor in Berlin (presumably automated). However, emergency ID cards or passports are printed directly in the office with special ink. There is not much you can automate here – it doesn't happen too often but can't be batched as people need them immediately. Just with ID cards I can think of a lot of other specialized hardware: optical scanners for the ID card itself, optical scanner for paper documents, fingerprint readers, contactless readers, automated forgery checkers, and probably more. All of that needs to be supported. I can't think of many processes that still aren't automated that could be. The only thing is that most internal processes where many employees need to work together are still paper based and a file is often transported physically to a couple of people – for example to have a medium-sized contract at least the case worker, their supervisor, the tender office, a lawyer, and the treasury need to have it on their desk. But paper is going to be replaced with an electronic file system soon (but again – that is probably not developed for Linux and needs to be ported).