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Why are people born inside the imaginary lines of my country more important to help than those born outside of it? Someone from Bangladesh or Mexico is not a fe

Why are people born inside the imaginary lines of my country more important to help than those born outside of it? Someone from Bangladesh or Mexico is not a fellow citizen of my country, but they are a fellow citizen of my world. Why should the smaller and more arbitrary geographical division come first? You can talk about culture, but I'm sure I have more in common culturally with a phd student or entrepreneur in Dhaka than a Christian fundamentalist in Kansas. I understand that there is a lot of complexity in these issues, but it's hard for me to see nationalism as anything more than a form of widely accepted bigotry.

YooLi 10y ago
Because being born inside those imaginary lines means people pay ($ + other) and therefore expect the group they contribute to to put them ahead of an outsider.
- danenania 10y ago
  Which only leads to the question of why, as a world, we are pooling our resources in such an artificially constrained and divisive way.
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  So, since California has a significant state tax, it would be a reasonable expectation for Californians to put other Californians first at all times? Also note that people living inside the country contribute to it, not just those born there or those who finished their 15+ years long naturalization process...
  - YooLi 10y ago
    No it wouldn't be reasonable for the same reason saying no one should have locks on their doors and anyone should be free to go inside any house and use/live isn't reasonable.
- kelnos 10y ago
  That doesn't follow. My friends who are not US citizens and are here on H-1B visas (and have similar jobs as I do) pay significantly more in taxes than I do. And many of the programs those taxes pay into (like Social Security) are closed to them because they're non-citizens. Given that many US citizens don't start paying much if anything in the way of taxes until post-education (18-22), a non-citizen coming to the US right after college will be paying roughly the same. But ok, let's say that's not persuasive. I was born in New Jersey, and grew up in Maryland. I moved to California when I was 23 to start working. My family had of course never paid CA state taxes. Should CA have placed artificial "preferences" on workers who were born in CA, preferences that would have put me at the bottom of the hiring pile? Should I have been excluded from a job because other Californians were unemployed at the time? If that sounds ridiculous, then applying the same reasoning to a non-citizen sounds just about as ridiculous.
  - YooLi 10y ago
    Re: H1-B friends They pay taxes because now they are here within the imaginary lines and even if they don't get Social security, etc they are still benefitting from being here where they have all the other niceties of being here. Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. Their parents paid for them. Re: California Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. You're stuck thinking in terms of just $. And no one is saying no one should be able to come here. You simply asked why do people think negatively about H1-B and I explained it to you. What company wouldn't hire workers that cost them significantly less and can't easily leave over someone local, and hence the position against. It's not difficult.
    - kelnos 10y ago
      >> Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. > Their parents paid for them. Quite the opposite. Their parents got a tax deduction simply because their children exist. >> Re: California > Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. Exactly! Just as the entire world is part of a still larger imaginary piece! Borders are just squiggly lines drawn on a map. I have more in common with an engineering student in India than with most people in middle America: socially, culturally, etc. > You're stuck thinking in terms of just $. I was replying to a post of yours wherein you were making an argument about solely $.
sheepmullet 10y ago
I find it interesting that the "American first" crowd tends to donate more to the overseas needy than the "citizens of the world" crowd. excluding a few billionaires who really do believe in helping others.
- literallycancer 10y ago
  Care to provide a source?
alextheparrot 10y ago
Why should people born outside the imaginary lines of my country be allowed to come inside it? The power structure resides inside the described imaginary lines, thus the outsiders need to make this argument to the insiders, not the opposite way, realistically. If the outsiders can't convince the insiders, they simply won't be let in. With that framing, it is easy to see how it isn't (necessarily) bigotry, but just that the outsiders appear to offer little or negative value to many people. By saying "They are taking our jobs", people are expressing that they believe the outsiders being let has a negative effect on them, thus it is quite rational that they want to strengthen those imaginary lines.
AlgorithmicTime 10y ago
I'll accept that argument when every country adopts American values and expectations. Until then, nope.

YooLi 10y ago

Because being born inside those imaginary lines means people pay ($ + other) and therefore expect the group they contribute to to put them ahead of an outsider.

danenania 10y ago
Which only leads to the question of why, as a world, we are pooling our resources in such an artificially constrained and divisive way.
lazaroclapp 10y ago
So, since California has a significant state tax, it would be a reasonable expectation for Californians to put other Californians first at all times? Also note that people living inside the country contribute to it, not just those born there or those who finished their 15+ years long naturalization process...
- YooLi 10y ago
  No it wouldn't be reasonable for the same reason saying no one should have locks on their doors and anyone should be free to go inside any house and use/live isn't reasonable.
kelnos 10y ago
That doesn't follow. My friends who are not US citizens and are here on H-1B visas (and have similar jobs as I do) pay significantly more in taxes than I do. And many of the programs those taxes pay into (like Social Security) are closed to them because they're non-citizens. Given that many US citizens don't start paying much if anything in the way of taxes until post-education (18-22), a non-citizen coming to the US right after college will be paying roughly the same. But ok, let's say that's not persuasive. I was born in New Jersey, and grew up in Maryland. I moved to California when I was 23 to start working. My family had of course never paid CA state taxes. Should CA have placed artificial "preferences" on workers who were born in CA, preferences that would have put me at the bottom of the hiring pile? Should I have been excluded from a job because other Californians were unemployed at the time? If that sounds ridiculous, then applying the same reasoning to a non-citizen sounds just about as ridiculous.
- YooLi 10y ago
  Re: H1-B friends They pay taxes because now they are here within the imaginary lines and even if they don't get Social security, etc they are still benefitting from being here where they have all the other niceties of being here. Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. Their parents paid for them. Re: California Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. You're stuck thinking in terms of just $. And no one is saying no one should be able to come here. You simply asked why do people think negatively about H1-B and I explained it to you. What company wouldn't hire workers that cost them significantly less and can't easily leave over someone local, and hence the position against. It's not difficult.
  - kelnos 10y ago
    >> Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. > Their parents paid for them. Quite the opposite. Their parents got a tax deduction simply because their children exist. >> Re: California > Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. Exactly! Just as the entire world is part of a still larger imaginary piece! Borders are just squiggly lines drawn on a map. I have more in common with an engineering student in India than with most people in middle America: socially, culturally, etc. > You're stuck thinking in terms of just $. I was replying to a post of yours wherein you were making an argument about solely $.

sheepmullet 10y ago

I find it interesting that the "American first" crowd tends to donate more to the overseas needy than the "citizens of the world" crowd. excluding a few billionaires who really do believe in helping others.

literallycancer 10y ago
Care to provide a source?

alextheparrot 10y ago

Why should people born outside the imaginary lines of my country be allowed to come inside it? The power structure resides inside the described imaginary lines, thus the outsiders need to make this argument to the insiders, not the opposite way, realistically. If the outsiders can't convince the insiders, they simply won't be let in. With that framing, it is easy to see how it isn't (necessarily) bigotry, but just that the outsiders appear to offer little or negative value to many people. By saying "They are taking our jobs", people are expressing that they believe the outsiders being let has a negative effect on them, thus it is quite rational that they want to strengthen those imaginary lines.

AlgorithmicTime 10y ago

I'll accept that argument when every country adopts American values and expectations. Until then, nope.