4 ms·

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

adictator 10y ago
Wikipedia? Ok, I have this from a PhD: (surely that counts marginally higher than random wikipedia edited articles): https://youtu.be/CLybCo1cWfc https://youtu.be/CLybCo1cWfc There never was a golden age in the land of the deserts, especially after Islam took hold. I mean look at some of the things the Quran says. Any golden age was just in people's minds. Also, if there was one, what happened? Why are there so few scientific breakthroughs in the regions that are largely Islamic?
- fractaled 10y ago
  FWIW, Bill Warner's PhD is in math & physics.
  - adictator 10y ago
    Yes, that's correct. Not sure what your point is.
    - ajkjk 10y ago
      Obviously it is that he has no special authority on this subject.
      - adictator 10y ago
        Ah, as opposed to the wikipedia authors? According to you they had a special authority on this subject, never mind any bias?
        jacobolus 10y ago
        With 20–40 minutes of effort, someone could easily track down a large pile of peer-reviewed scholarly literature examining the contributions of Arab, Persian, Seljuk, etc. mathematicians and scientists of 800–1600 CE, and putting it in historical / scientific context. But I doubt you really care much, or you would do the same searching for yourself. So it’s not worth the time.
        adictator 10y ago
        If I didn't care then I would not have made the post. And that goes the same for you. I think you're making this a battle between who is right - you or me. For me it is a battle between what is truth and what is a blatant lie. For me it is an anomaly that Islam rose in the desert and has always been a catalyst for death, destruction and chaos, yet suddenly there was this golden period with scientific accomplishments etc, and again suddenly all that vanished until this very day! That's a bit too much for my logical mind to accept. Maybe it is the nature of the people living in the harsh environment or maybe because Islam is the youngest of the Abrahamic religions - either way, people generally are giving Islam a free pass and not examining the inconsistencies in this narrative leading up to the Islamic Golden Age. For me it seems this was a great way for Islam to show that even though there are problems, they have had a great & tolerant past that was rich with scientific advancements. And we are naively consuming & being fed all that as the undeniable truth.
        ajkjk 10y ago
        No, they're probably equally lacking authority. But you cited the PhD as a better authority, when he clearly wasn't, so you sound ridiculous.
        adictator 10y ago
        It seems you agree with me, yet you think I sound ridiculous. Did we move away from my original topic and are we now arguing solely about wikipedia being a good source for anything or on par with a PhD? My point was that a PhD is in any case in a better position to make a proper & logical argument as opposed to many edits that general people make to wikipedia articles to suit their narrative. Heck, even I am guilty of that & my edits in wikipedia are still intact after ~6 years. Additionally, the source (one of many) is a video with a face, not an anonymous edit made by a group somewhere somehow & it seems you're getting very personal / insecure about it. I would like to say "Grow up, dude", but that would be impolite.
        ajkjk 10y ago
        No, I don't have an opinion on your weirdly anti-Islam point, but your way of arguing it is disingenuous and unconvincing and it sounds like you have to resort to cherry-picking and touting up obscure sources to support it, so it's probably false. I just chimed in to criticize the way you argued, in hopes that it would go away. When you said "look here's a guy with a Phd", pretending like his expertise was relevant, and then someone said that his PhD wasn't in a relevant field, you played dumb and wrote "Yes, that's correct. Not sure what your point is.", as though you couldn't perceive that citing someone as an expert when they're not makes you sound obviously uncredible. "I would like to say "Grow up, dude", but that would be impolite." I'm not sure what would lead you to think it's somehow more polite to talk about saying something like that than actually saying, but, it's definitely not. You don't sound mature for pretending to exercise restraint.
        adictator 10y ago
        So who is an expert in your opinion? Obviously a PhD who can be trusted to infer objectively from facts does not make the cut in your eyes. Who gave you the moral policing authority to call anybody disingenuous etc. I'm sorry if you are a muslim & I ruffled your feathers a bit. But be a sport and see it for what it is. Stop judging people just because they have a thought or idea that is different from yours, never mind opposing yours. "weirdly anti-Islam"?? - Damn! Say one word against Islam and people are so defensive. No wonder we have so many problems in this world with kids trying to act like they know it all.
        arjie 10y ago
        Wikipedia is an aggregator not a source. It's like HN, a useful place to find links to where reputable people have said things.
- dang 10y ago
  This comment crosses into religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN, so please don't post like this.
  - adictator 10y ago
    Yes, I think I got carried away too in responding to a rather blunt post. I was mainly commenting about the name "Arabic" numerals, when the Arabs did everything to kill & destroy civilizations. It would have been one thing to attribute and credit an invention to someone incorrectly, but it is a completely different & seriously offensive thing to credit something to a class of people who actually almost destroyed the very things that they did not have the intelligence or perseverance to invent.
    - jacobolus 10y ago
      Is this a joke? During the Middle Ages, Europe was a feudal backwater of peasant farmers and small continuously warring kingdoms. Scientific and mathematical knowledge (optics, mechanics, astronomy, medicine, ...) throughout the Muslim world was considerably further developed, and there were well organized and well funded cultural institutions devoted to scientific research (not to mention much wider access to traded luxury goods, more resources devoted to fine arts, greater literary output, much more sophisticated financial/business operations, etc.). If Greek and Roman works hadn’t been preserved in Arabic translation in great libraries in prosperous Islamic cities, many would not survive to today. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to...
      - adictator 10y ago
        I truly wish it was a joke. You and countless others have been brainwashed (wikipedia is just one such medium) to believe in the greatness of a group a people who knew nothing but to plunder and kill .. just because their beliefs were different, It is happening even now, around you, yet you are oblivious... maybe until it comes right to your doorstep, by which time it will be too late. Maybe you mean that the way of the sword works in mysterious ways, one of which is the preservation of great Greek & Roman works? Maybe you have a point... all I am urging you to is to look at this objectively.

Wikipedia? Ok, I have this from a PhD: (surely that counts marginally higher than random wikipedia edited articles): https://youtu.be/CLybCo1cWfc https://youtu.be/CLybCo1cWfc There never was a golden age in the land of the deserts, especially after Islam took hold. I mean look at some of the things the Quran says. Any golden age was just in people's minds. Also, if there was one, what happened? Why are there so few scientific breakthroughs in the regions that are largely Islamic?

fractaled 10y ago
FWIW, Bill Warner's PhD is in math & physics.
- adictator 10y ago
  Yes, that's correct. Not sure what your point is.
  - ajkjk 10y ago
    Obviously it is that he has no special authority on this subject.
    - adictator 10y ago
      Ah, as opposed to the wikipedia authors? According to you they had a special authority on this subject, never mind any bias?
      - jacobolus 10y ago
        With 20–40 minutes of effort, someone could easily track down a large pile of peer-reviewed scholarly literature examining the contributions of Arab, Persian, Seljuk, etc. mathematicians and scientists of 800–1600 CE, and putting it in historical / scientific context. But I doubt you really care much, or you would do the same searching for yourself. So it’s not worth the time.
        adictator 10y ago
        If I didn't care then I would not have made the post. And that goes the same for you. I think you're making this a battle between who is right - you or me. For me it is a battle between what is truth and what is a blatant lie. For me it is an anomaly that Islam rose in the desert and has always been a catalyst for death, destruction and chaos, yet suddenly there was this golden period with scientific accomplishments etc, and again suddenly all that vanished until this very day! That's a bit too much for my logical mind to accept. Maybe it is the nature of the people living in the harsh environment or maybe because Islam is the youngest of the Abrahamic religions - either way, people generally are giving Islam a free pass and not examining the inconsistencies in this narrative leading up to the Islamic Golden Age. For me it seems this was a great way for Islam to show that even though there are problems, they have had a great & tolerant past that was rich with scientific advancements. And we are naively consuming & being fed all that as the undeniable truth.
      - ajkjk 10y ago
        No, they're probably equally lacking authority. But you cited the PhD as a better authority, when he clearly wasn't, so you sound ridiculous.
        adictator 10y ago
        It seems you agree with me, yet you think I sound ridiculous. Did we move away from my original topic and are we now arguing solely about wikipedia being a good source for anything or on par with a PhD? My point was that a PhD is in any case in a better position to make a proper & logical argument as opposed to many edits that general people make to wikipedia articles to suit their narrative. Heck, even I am guilty of that & my edits in wikipedia are still intact after ~6 years. Additionally, the source (one of many) is a video with a face, not an anonymous edit made by a group somewhere somehow & it seems you're getting very personal / insecure about it. I would like to say "Grow up, dude", but that would be impolite.
        ajkjk 10y ago
        No, I don't have an opinion on your weirdly anti-Islam point, but your way of arguing it is disingenuous and unconvincing and it sounds like you have to resort to cherry-picking and touting up obscure sources to support it, so it's probably false. I just chimed in to criticize the way you argued, in hopes that it would go away. When you said "look here's a guy with a Phd", pretending like his expertise was relevant, and then someone said that his PhD wasn't in a relevant field, you played dumb and wrote "Yes, that's correct. Not sure what your point is.", as though you couldn't perceive that citing someone as an expert when they're not makes you sound obviously uncredible. "I would like to say "Grow up, dude", but that would be impolite." I'm not sure what would lead you to think it's somehow more polite to talk about saying something like that than actually saying, but, it's definitely not. You don't sound mature for pretending to exercise restraint.
        adictator 10y ago
        So who is an expert in your opinion? Obviously a PhD who can be trusted to infer objectively from facts does not make the cut in your eyes. Who gave you the moral policing authority to call anybody disingenuous etc. I'm sorry if you are a muslim & I ruffled your feathers a bit. But be a sport and see it for what it is. Stop judging people just because they have a thought or idea that is different from yours, never mind opposing yours. "weirdly anti-Islam"?? - Damn! Say one word against Islam and people are so defensive. No wonder we have so many problems in this world with kids trying to act like they know it all.
      - arjie 10y ago
        Wikipedia is an aggregator not a source. It's like HN, a useful place to find links to where reputable people have said things.
dang 10y ago
This comment crosses into religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN, so please don't post like this.
- adictator 10y ago
  Yes, I think I got carried away too in responding to a rather blunt post. I was mainly commenting about the name "Arabic" numerals, when the Arabs did everything to kill & destroy civilizations. It would have been one thing to attribute and credit an invention to someone incorrectly, but it is a completely different & seriously offensive thing to credit something to a class of people who actually almost destroyed the very things that they did not have the intelligence or perseverance to invent.
  - jacobolus 10y ago
    Is this a joke? During the Middle Ages, Europe was a feudal backwater of peasant farmers and small continuously warring kingdoms. Scientific and mathematical knowledge (optics, mechanics, astronomy, medicine, ...) throughout the Muslim world was considerably further developed, and there were well organized and well funded cultural institutions devoted to scientific research (not to mention much wider access to traded luxury goods, more resources devoted to fine arts, greater literary output, much more sophisticated financial/business operations, etc.). If Greek and Roman works hadn’t been preserved in Arabic translation in great libraries in prosperous Islamic cities, many would not survive to today. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to...
    - adictator 10y ago
      I truly wish it was a joke. You and countless others have been brainwashed (wikipedia is just one such medium) to believe in the greatness of a group a people who knew nothing but to plunder and kill .. just because their beliefs were different, It is happening even now, around you, yet you are oblivious... maybe until it comes right to your doorstep, by which time it will be too late. Maybe you mean that the way of the sword works in mysterious ways, one of which is the preservation of great Greek & Roman works? Maybe you have a point... all I am urging you to is to look at this objectively.