7 ms·

Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ in Predicting Academic Performance in Adolescents

70 points by chegra 16y ago

swah 16y ago
And if you are here reading this after telling yourself you really would code your ass off today, you already lost.
- chegra 16y ago
  I remember working on my first site and just only doing 2hrs a day. I try avoiding using my willpower when I can. I talk about the experience here: http://chegra.posterous.com/consistently-underperforming http://chegra.posterous.com/consistently-underperforming
- pwhelan 16y ago
  Dammit! Wait! I haven't finished my coffee yet! There could still be a modicum of win...
- briancooley 16y ago
  If reading it causes a paradigm shift that results in a sustainable productivity improvement or reduces fear, it's a net win.
  - jodrellblank 16y ago
    Yeah, I keep hoping that solutions to life problems are but an effortless realization gleaned from reading a page or two on the internet away, as well. :/ http://dirtsimple.org/2010/02/ending-my-insight-addiction.html http://dirtsimple.org/2010/02/ending-my-insight-addiction.ht...
- rauljara 16y ago
  And if you posted on this thread after telling yourself you really would code your ass off today... Seriously, though, sometimes taking short breaks can cause you to be more productive than just slogging through. Not all trips to the internet are procrastination. Sometimes you really do need to just stop coding for a few minutes. Though I imagine there are better ways to recharge your mental batteries than HN. HN just makes you think too much sometimes.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - swah 16y ago
    Err, my short stops are from BC2...
- staunch 16y ago
  Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
tkahn6 16y ago
This does not surprise me at all. Anyone with average intelligence can get good grades in high school - it's just a matter of how much time you're willing to devote to getting them. The trade-off comes in deciding whether you'd rather get good grades or spend time learning other things on your own. It comes down to how much you trust the educational system you're in to fully make use of your time and intelligence. I think it's a bad thing that, in general, grades to not track IQ. Hard work is important, but only when the effort does work on your intelligence (similar to the physical definition of work). One can spend hours on a paper or a PowerPoint and have done nothing to further their intelligence; and yet these assignments are what students are typically graded on.
- thribbler 16y ago
  >spend time learning other things on your own Hear Hear! And all learning is done on one's own, really. IQ is, not to put too fine a point on it, bunk. Grades are also bunk. They can never measure depth of knowledge, which is the thing that matters, intellectually speaking. Depth depends on connections formed with other areas of knowledge, which are unique to each student.
  - aoriste 16y ago
    There is intrinsic to the academic system a pervasive issue of trust. Grades can indicate the depth of knowledge, but with the disclaimer that both the arbitrating grader is trusted (in a very special sense), and that the method used to decide grades be both defensible and explicable to others. To provide a concrete example. A paper on the first book of Hume's Treatise of Human Nature attempts to bring a new argument to bear on the consequences to modern epistemology incurred by Hume's concept of abstract ideas. The paper is written as a final in a graduate level philosophy class, and the instructor is known to be knowledgeable, intelligent, fair, and honest. The paper receives a B+. It is arguable that the mark is generally reflective of the student's understanding and ability at the time the student wrote the paper. (this example is taken from personal experience - I wrote this paper, and I feel that the grade was reflective of my knowledge on the topic) But without the trustworthy instructor, the grade would be meaningless. The problem, if I were to speculate, is one of numbers - too many students, too few professors. A basic premise of security is that the more parties involved in a pact, the lest reliable the pact is, and if grades are to be a faithfully representation of a students ability, the reliability of the academic pact is paramount.
lawn 16y ago
I'm not surprised. For me school has always been about discipline and dedication and not about skill. The school adapts itself to a lower difficulty so that more will pass and they compensate by making it more cumbersome so that the skilled, but not so disciplined, will get bored and not perform as well. This was also my personal experience. I was pretty good at math but I never got any challanges so I just didn't do anything, but luckily I aced the tests and the only homeworks we got where to have complete the chapters. This translated to other courses where I was good, but I got bored and not motivated so I got a lot worse grades than I could've had if I was dedicated. I managed to motivate myself later on to get good grades, other would call them great, but I know I could've had straight A grades if I just weren't so lazy and skipped a lot of hours. Furthermore it doesn't help (doesn't show in grades) if you know a subject really well. Often the workaholics, or a bit nicer: those with more discipline than me, would just study like hell before a test and get a great score, where I wouldn't but I knew the subject well enough so I would get a great score too. I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember anything from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months.
- kellogs 16y ago
  "they compensate by making it more cumbersome so that the skilled, but not so disciplined, will get bored and not perform as well" I couldn't have put it better, that's exactly what I feel too! It would be so cool if the educational system were designed to help under-disciplined people to perform to their best rather than weed out the ones who can't adapt.
- jgg 16y ago
  >I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember anything from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months. On one Calculus test I had, I didn't study or do any of the homework and pulled a ~90% score. When talking to someone who got a perfect 100%, he casually informed me that he forgot how to integrate between tests. I was shocked to hear this, but apparently it's the norm.
HSO 16y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if this held true for particular subjects that are generally thought of as "hard" as well. My favorite is mathematics. I used to have a really tough time with maths and used to hate it. Then, the smartest friend I have (who coincidentally did his PhD in financial mathematics with Freddy Delbaen back then -- for those who don't know this area, that means he was really good) once made an offhand remark along the lines of "Most people think of mathematicians as 'geniuses' -- if only. You have no idea how much you simply have to learn by heart and how much work it can be." That sort of pushed me over the edge and I started to re-learn mathematics from the ground up, starting with, yes, high-school material, working my way up with MIT OCW courses (http://ocw.mit.edu http://ocw.mit.edu) and eventually being able to take PhD classes in statistics in the space of about 2-3 years (incl. periods of part- and full-time work). Not bad for a guy who couldn't tell the difference between cos and sine functions when he started. And all because I shed the notion of "math is for talented people" and started to actually work my ass off. It was surprisingly "easy" once I put in the work and I also noticed how shortcuts taken in one part would hurt me down the road later so it really was all about remaining disciplined.
- flatline 16y ago
  I just finished a course on integral calculus...one of my classmates said he put in 20-30 hrs/week and he ended up dropping the class - he just couldn't understand the problems and he was a terrible test taker. I put in a lot of work in the first month or so then the rest of the course sort of just sailed by. I guess my only point is, YMMV...
  - spamizbad 16y ago
    If he struggled that much with integral calc the cause is likely a poor foundation in High-school level mathematics.
    - billswift 16y ago
      I agree, the hardest parts of calculus are the algebraic manipulations required, the basic ideas are relatively straight-forward.
amichail 16y ago
Why do you care about academic performance? Wouldn't your time be better spent on entrepreneurial endeavors? BTW, it appears that fast thinkers are less likely to be creative people: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-mind-may-nurture-more-creative-ideas.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-mi...
silverlake 16y ago
Duh. But you can get pretty far on pure IQ. Every male in my family is a useless lazy sack, but we all have science PhDs.
jergosh 16y ago
"compared with their more impulsive peers, highly self-disciplined eighth graders earned higher GPAs and achievement-test scores, were more likely to gain admission to a selective high school, had fewer school absences, spent more time on their homework, watched less television, and started their homework earlier in the day." First has a lot to do with what is expected at school (wonder what the data looks for 3rd level education) and the rest is pretty obvious...
10ren 16y ago
oblig: http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html
zackattack 16y ago
I reviewed Daniel Goleman's book "Emotional Intelligence" on my blog last month, and the psychological framework he uncovers does a good job of accounting for/predicting these kinds of observed results http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-behavior-emotional-intelligence/ http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-behav...
jodrellblank 16y ago
http://blog.jgc.org/2009/10/damn-torpedoes.html http://blog.jgc.org/2009/10/damn-torpedoes.html (Can't find HN link for it) http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-obstacles-for-committed-people/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-obstac... "Rules are no obstacles for committed people"
Detrus 16y ago
In our current world, full of colorful distractions, an education system that relies on self-discipline is obsolete. Some students have a "discipline" trait, they'll force themselves through boring drudgery to get the A, then never look at the material again, the A is all that matters. That's a waste of time. True "discipline" comes from having an interest in the material. That interest has to be sparked by something, the material gives you a buzz, and working on it does not feel like work. That's not something I'd call self-discipline.
marltod 16y ago
They controlled for IQ, but they didn't control for desire. Some people want to make good grades for pride, to impress their parents, etc.. Others would rather do something other than the busy work required to be in the 94th percentile as shown in the graph. There is no difference between getting As and Bs in 8th grade. Colleges mainly look at grades in 9-12.
noteasynothard 16y ago
I think the people that think before hearing or reading about the solution are the one best prepared for Academic Performance. A funny experiment should be to take an English native teenager to a sociology class in Chinese language and then ask him about what he has learned.
hophead 16y ago
So I'd buy this, but how do I as an adult with lower than average self-discipline improve this facet of myself? Is it something you are born with? It seems paradoxical to try to achieve high self discipline through determined hard work.
alanh 16y ago
Clicked the [scribd] link and got this (and only this): "Hello, you have an old version of Adobe Flash Player. To use iPaper (and lots of other stuff on the web) you need to get the latest Flash player." WTF? I thought Scribd was HTML5-in’ it up?
apsec112 16y ago
Why should anyone want to get high grades in eighth grade? What's the point? No one's ever going to look at them.
- obfuscate 16y ago
  Selective (private/charter/magnet) high schools. Otherwise, yeah.

70 points by chegra 16y ago

swah 16y ago

And if you are here reading this after telling yourself you really would code your ass off today, you already lost.

chegra 16y ago
I remember working on my first site and just only doing 2hrs a day. I try avoiding using my willpower when I can. I talk about the experience here: http://chegra.posterous.com/consistently-underperforming http://chegra.posterous.com/consistently-underperforming
pwhelan 16y ago
Dammit! Wait! I haven't finished my coffee yet! There could still be a modicum of win...
briancooley 16y ago
If reading it causes a paradigm shift that results in a sustainable productivity improvement or reduces fear, it's a net win.
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  Yeah, I keep hoping that solutions to life problems are but an effortless realization gleaned from reading a page or two on the internet away, as well. :/ http://dirtsimple.org/2010/02/ending-my-insight-addiction.html http://dirtsimple.org/2010/02/ending-my-insight-addiction.ht...
rauljara 16y ago
And if you posted on this thread after telling yourself you really would code your ass off today... Seriously, though, sometimes taking short breaks can cause you to be more productive than just slogging through. Not all trips to the internet are procrastination. Sometimes you really do need to just stop coding for a few minutes. Though I imagine there are better ways to recharge your mental batteries than HN. HN just makes you think too much sometimes.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- swah 16y ago
  Err, my short stops are from BC2...
staunch 16y ago
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

tkahn6 16y ago

This does not surprise me at all. Anyone with average intelligence can get good grades in high school - it's just a matter of how much time you're willing to devote to getting them. The trade-off comes in deciding whether you'd rather get good grades or spend time learning other things on your own. It comes down to how much you trust the educational system you're in to fully make use of your time and intelligence. I think it's a bad thing that, in general, grades to not track IQ. Hard work is important, but only when the effort does work on your intelligence (similar to the physical definition of work). One can spend hours on a paper or a PowerPoint and have done nothing to further their intelligence; and yet these assignments are what students are typically graded on.

thribbler 16y ago
>spend time learning other things on your own Hear Hear! And all learning is done on one's own, really. IQ is, not to put too fine a point on it, bunk. Grades are also bunk. They can never measure depth of knowledge, which is the thing that matters, intellectually speaking. Depth depends on connections formed with other areas of knowledge, which are unique to each student.
- aoriste 16y ago
  There is intrinsic to the academic system a pervasive issue of trust. Grades can indicate the depth of knowledge, but with the disclaimer that both the arbitrating grader is trusted (in a very special sense), and that the method used to decide grades be both defensible and explicable to others. To provide a concrete example. A paper on the first book of Hume's Treatise of Human Nature attempts to bring a new argument to bear on the consequences to modern epistemology incurred by Hume's concept of abstract ideas. The paper is written as a final in a graduate level philosophy class, and the instructor is known to be knowledgeable, intelligent, fair, and honest. The paper receives a B+. It is arguable that the mark is generally reflective of the student's understanding and ability at the time the student wrote the paper. (this example is taken from personal experience - I wrote this paper, and I feel that the grade was reflective of my knowledge on the topic) But without the trustworthy instructor, the grade would be meaningless. The problem, if I were to speculate, is one of numbers - too many students, too few professors. A basic premise of security is that the more parties involved in a pact, the lest reliable the pact is, and if grades are to be a faithfully representation of a students ability, the reliability of the academic pact is paramount.

lawn 16y ago

I'm not surprised. For me school has always been about discipline and dedication and not about skill. The school adapts itself to a lower difficulty so that more will pass and they compensate by making it more cumbersome so that the skilled, but not so disciplined, will get bored and not perform as well. This was also my personal experience. I was pretty good at math but I never got any challanges so I just didn't do anything, but luckily I aced the tests and the only homeworks we got where to have complete the chapters. This translated to other courses where I was good, but I got bored and not motivated so I got a lot worse grades than I could've had if I was dedicated. I managed to motivate myself later on to get good grades, other would call them great, but I know I could've had straight A grades if I just weren't so lazy and skipped a lot of hours. Furthermore it doesn't help (doesn't show in grades) if you know a subject really well. Often the workaholics, or a bit nicer: those with more discipline than me, would just study like hell before a test and get a great score, where I wouldn't but I knew the subject well enough so I would get a great score too. I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember anything from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months.

kellogs 16y ago
"they compensate by making it more cumbersome so that the skilled, but not so disciplined, will get bored and not perform as well" I couldn't have put it better, that's exactly what I feel too! It would be so cool if the educational system were designed to help under-disciplined people to perform to their best rather than weed out the ones who can't adapt.
jgg 16y ago
>I'm a bit upset with this because I doubt that they could remember anything from those tests but I felt I could remember them for months. On one Calculus test I had, I didn't study or do any of the homework and pulled a ~90% score. When talking to someone who got a perfect 100%, he casually informed me that he forgot how to integrate between tests. I was shocked to hear this, but apparently it's the norm.

HSO 16y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if this held true for particular subjects that are generally thought of as "hard" as well. My favorite is mathematics. I used to have a really tough time with maths and used to hate it. Then, the smartest friend I have (who coincidentally did his PhD in financial mathematics with Freddy Delbaen back then -- for those who don't know this area, that means he was really good) once made an offhand remark along the lines of "Most people think of mathematicians as 'geniuses' -- if only. You have no idea how much you simply have to learn by heart and how much work it can be." That sort of pushed me over the edge and I started to re-learn mathematics from the ground up, starting with, yes, high-school material, working my way up with MIT OCW courses (http://ocw.mit.edu http://ocw.mit.edu) and eventually being able to take PhD classes in statistics in the space of about 2-3 years (incl. periods of part- and full-time work). Not bad for a guy who couldn't tell the difference between cos and sine functions when he started. And all because I shed the notion of "math is for talented people" and started to actually work my ass off. It was surprisingly "easy" once I put in the work and I also noticed how shortcuts taken in one part would hurt me down the road later so it really was all about remaining disciplined.

flatline 16y ago
I just finished a course on integral calculus...one of my classmates said he put in 20-30 hrs/week and he ended up dropping the class - he just couldn't understand the problems and he was a terrible test taker. I put in a lot of work in the first month or so then the rest of the course sort of just sailed by. I guess my only point is, YMMV...
- spamizbad 16y ago
  If he struggled that much with integral calc the cause is likely a poor foundation in High-school level mathematics.
  - billswift 16y ago
    I agree, the hardest parts of calculus are the algebraic manipulations required, the basic ideas are relatively straight-forward.

amichail 16y ago

Why do you care about academic performance? Wouldn't your time be better spent on entrepreneurial endeavors? BTW, it appears that fast thinkers are less likely to be creative people: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-mind-may-nurture-more-creative-ideas.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527535.500-a-slow-mi...

silverlake 16y ago

Duh. But you can get pretty far on pure IQ. Every male in my family is a useless lazy sack, but we all have science PhDs.

jergosh 16y ago

"compared with their more impulsive peers, highly self-disciplined eighth graders earned higher GPAs and achievement-test scores, were more likely to gain admission to a selective high school, had fewer school absences, spent more time on their homework, watched less television, and started their homework earlier in the day." First has a lot to do with what is expected at school (wonder what the data looks for 3rd level education) and the rest is pretty obvious...

10ren 16y ago

oblig: http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html http://www.paulgraham.com/determination.html

zackattack 16y ago

I reviewed Daniel Goleman's book "Emotional Intelligence" on my blog last month, and the psychological framework he uncovers does a good job of accounting for/predicting these kinds of observed results http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-behavior-emotional-intelligence/ http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/04/understanding-human-behav...

jodrellblank 16y ago

http://blog.jgc.org/2009/10/damn-torpedoes.html http://blog.jgc.org/2009/10/damn-torpedoes.html (Can't find HN link for it) http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-obstacles-for-committed-people/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/12/rules-are-no-obstac... "Rules are no obstacles for committed people"

Detrus 16y ago

In our current world, full of colorful distractions, an education system that relies on self-discipline is obsolete. Some students have a "discipline" trait, they'll force themselves through boring drudgery to get the A, then never look at the material again, the A is all that matters. That's a waste of time. True "discipline" comes from having an interest in the material. That interest has to be sparked by something, the material gives you a buzz, and working on it does not feel like work. That's not something I'd call self-discipline.

marltod 16y ago

They controlled for IQ, but they didn't control for desire. Some people want to make good grades for pride, to impress their parents, etc.. Others would rather do something other than the busy work required to be in the 94th percentile as shown in the graph. There is no difference between getting As and Bs in 8th grade. Colleges mainly look at grades in 9-12.

noteasynothard 16y ago

I think the people that think before hearing or reading about the solution are the one best prepared for Academic Performance. A funny experiment should be to take an English native teenager to a sociology class in Chinese language and then ask him about what he has learned.

hophead 16y ago

So I'd buy this, but how do I as an adult with lower than average self-discipline improve this facet of myself? Is it something you are born with? It seems paradoxical to try to achieve high self discipline through determined hard work.

alanh 16y ago

Clicked the [scribd] link and got this (and only this): "Hello, you have an old version of Adobe Flash Player. To use iPaper (and lots of other stuff on the web) you need to get the latest Flash player." WTF? I thought Scribd was HTML5-in’ it up?

apsec112 16y ago

Why should anyone want to get high grades in eighth grade? What's the point? No one's ever going to look at them.

obfuscate 16y ago
Selective (private/charter/magnet) high schools. Otherwise, yeah.