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> #1 is like asking "how can this industrial chemical company be profitable if they can't just dump their waste in the sewers?" If a business model is only prof

> #1 is like asking "how can this industrial chemical company be profitable if they can't just dump their waste in the sewers?" If a business model is only profitable because they can externalize some of the problems associated with that model, it does deserve certain scrutiny and those who are harmed by the model should have some recourse. I'm not aware of any other business that is legally required to record every customer and link them to RL identities. You can still buy things with cash. So yeah, that is a terrible and blatantly false analogy. You are basically saying "Everyone has to be a subscription service with verifiable identities." Why are you on a site you believe morally shouldn't exist? > #2 has already happened. Not in the Western world.

wang_li 10y ago
>I'm not aware of any other business that is legally required to record every customer and link them to RL identities. You can still buy things with cash. Go buy a gun sometime. Or non-prescription cold medications that contain pseudoephedrine. Or prescription medications. Or auto insurance. However, my response was not about identities specifically, but about whether society should really care if the things that it requires organizations to do as a prerequisite of doing business are inexpensive. Sometimes we make the judgment that it really is worthwhile to require a pharma lab to spend half a billion dollars before we let them sell their new pill to the public. >Not in the Western world. Do you not consider Europe as part of the Western world? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/21/french-google-right-to-be-forgotten-appeal https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/21/french-go...
- fictioncircle 10y ago
  > Do you not consider Europe as part of the Western world? That isn't an example of what we are talking about and you should know that. If they can't enforce things as they do now, they'd need to block domains/firewall a la China. > Go buy a gun sometime. Or non-prescription cold medications that contain pseudoephedrine. Or prescription medications. Or auto insurance. You really are missing the point. You are talking about one off transactions of a substantial dollar value and not short-term online accounts with values measured in pennies. > However, my response was not about identities specifically, but about whether society should really care if the things that it requires organizations to do as a prerequisite of doing business are inexpensive. Sometimes we make the judgment that it really is worthwhile to require a pharma lab to spend half a billion dollars before we let them sell their new pill to the public. Alright, then stop posting on HN since you believe it should be legal to effectively shut it down. I mean, that is realistically the end result of what you are arguing for where the value-per-user is measured in pennies and you want them to verify people's identities per your original comment. Moving the goal posts now is pointless. > I've felt that an argument could be made that safe harbor provisions should only apply when the service provider can provide an actual identity associated with an account and that that person is within US legal jurisdiction. If you feel it is a legitimate regulation, you should voluntarily leave to show your commitment to it.
  - wang_li 10y ago
    >That isn't an example of what we are talking about and you should know that. If they can't enforce things as they do now, they'd need to block domains/firewall a la China. It is exactly what is being talked about. Countries impose their laws on companies operating in their jurisdictions. Sometimes even on organizations that are outside of their jurisdiction as well. E.g. the pirate bay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... The internet is already a mix of legal jurisdictions and you can face legal consequences for your word press blog in some random country. >You really are missing the point. You are talking about one off transactions of a substantial dollar value and not short-term online accounts with values measured in pennies. Cold medicine costs seven or eight bucks, but you still have to present ID to buy it. Regardless, your complaint reinforces the fact that there are business models that are only profitable because they can externalize the damages they cause or divert profits away from those who deserve the profits of a particular work to themselves as a service provider.
    - fictioncircle 10y ago
      > Cold medicine costs seven or eight bucks, but you still have to present ID to buy it. Regardless, your complaint reinforces the fact that there are business models that are only profitable because they can externalize the damages they cause or divert profits away from those who deserve the profits of a particular work to themselves as a service provider. So you want to expose people's IDs over the internet? o.O k

wang_li 10y ago

>I'm not aware of any other business that is legally required to record every customer and link them to RL identities. You can still buy things with cash. Go buy a gun sometime. Or non-prescription cold medications that contain pseudoephedrine. Or prescription medications. Or auto insurance. However, my response was not about identities specifically, but about whether society should really care if the things that it requires organizations to do as a prerequisite of doing business are inexpensive. Sometimes we make the judgment that it really is worthwhile to require a pharma lab to spend half a billion dollars before we let them sell their new pill to the public. >Not in the Western world. Do you not consider Europe as part of the Western world? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/21/french-google-right-to-be-forgotten-appeal https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/21/french-go...

fictioncircle 10y ago
> Do you not consider Europe as part of the Western world? That isn't an example of what we are talking about and you should know that. If they can't enforce things as they do now, they'd need to block domains/firewall a la China. > Go buy a gun sometime. Or non-prescription cold medications that contain pseudoephedrine. Or prescription medications. Or auto insurance. You really are missing the point. You are talking about one off transactions of a substantial dollar value and not short-term online accounts with values measured in pennies. > However, my response was not about identities specifically, but about whether society should really care if the things that it requires organizations to do as a prerequisite of doing business are inexpensive. Sometimes we make the judgment that it really is worthwhile to require a pharma lab to spend half a billion dollars before we let them sell their new pill to the public. Alright, then stop posting on HN since you believe it should be legal to effectively shut it down. I mean, that is realistically the end result of what you are arguing for where the value-per-user is measured in pennies and you want them to verify people's identities per your original comment. Moving the goal posts now is pointless. > I've felt that an argument could be made that safe harbor provisions should only apply when the service provider can provide an actual identity associated with an account and that that person is within US legal jurisdiction. If you feel it is a legitimate regulation, you should voluntarily leave to show your commitment to it.
- wang_li 10y ago
  >That isn't an example of what we are talking about and you should know that. If they can't enforce things as they do now, they'd need to block domains/firewall a la China. It is exactly what is being talked about. Countries impose their laws on companies operating in their jurisdictions. Sometimes even on organizations that are outside of their jurisdiction as well. E.g. the pirate bay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... The internet is already a mix of legal jurisdictions and you can face legal consequences for your word press blog in some random country. >You really are missing the point. You are talking about one off transactions of a substantial dollar value and not short-term online accounts with values measured in pennies. Cold medicine costs seven or eight bucks, but you still have to present ID to buy it. Regardless, your complaint reinforces the fact that there are business models that are only profitable because they can externalize the damages they cause or divert profits away from those who deserve the profits of a particular work to themselves as a service provider.
  - fictioncircle 10y ago
    > Cold medicine costs seven or eight bucks, but you still have to present ID to buy it. Regardless, your complaint reinforces the fact that there are business models that are only profitable because they can externalize the damages they cause or divert profits away from those who deserve the profits of a particular work to themselves as a service provider. So you want to expose people's IDs over the internet? o.O k