5 ms·

Not really. The client may not be sharing its spy tools but is very likely lying about how organizations are being classified as terrorists. This is about the

Not really. The client may not be sharing its spy tools but is very likely lying about how organizations are being classified as terrorists. This is about the law enforcement agency, not the arms dealer.

tn13 10y ago
Plenty of stories out there how completely normal individuals are targeted as terrorists. Example: http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/14/no-fly-list-challenged-stanford-student-wrongly-labeled-a-terrorist-judge-says/ http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/14/no-fly-list-challenged...
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Two most common misleading statements by law enforcement these days: 1) They were resisting arrest. 2) They are terrorists. Makes it hard to find cases where there are actual terrorists or people actually resisting arrest.
- Natsu 10y ago
  It's not easy to tell who is who unless they investigate, so they end up investigating the innocent as well as the guilty. Take the inauguration, there were so many peaceful protesters, coupled with a few idiots who chose to be violent, like this guy, who was charged in a plot to attack people by dumping acid into a ventilation system at an inaugural party: https://mpdc.dc.gov/release/arrest-made-conspiracy-commit-assault https://mpdc.dc.gov/release/arrest-made-conspiracy-commit-as...
  - forgotmysn 10y ago
    I feel like that distinction isn't as hard as you're making it sound
    - Natsu 10y ago
      I'm sure there are what appear to be clear-cut cases, especially in retrospect. I'm also sure that all of our 99% accurate heuristics we use in daily life will fail spectacularly on some minority of cases when applied 100,000 times.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    OK, butyric acid aka the smell of sour milk. Me, I would have picked butanethiol. But my first thought, reading "dumping acid", was LSD ;)
    - Natsu 10y ago
      Like a lot of things, that depends on exposure and concentration. Uncontrolled exposure from concentrated acid delivered via ventilation systems could easily end up on the higher end of the scale, even ignoring second order effects like an unplanned evacuation of a building surrounded by protests. The acid has a '3' for health effects (and a '2' for flammability). https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923216 https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923216 Potential Acute Health Effects: Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion. Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant), of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator). Liquid or spray mist may produce tissue damage particularly on mucous membranes of eyes, mouth and respiratory tract. Skin contact may produce burns. Inhalation of the spray mist may produce severe irritation of respiratory tract, characterized by coughing, choking, or shortness of breath. Potential Chronic Health Effects: The substance is toxic to lungs, the nervous system, mucous membranes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated or prolonged contact with spray mist may produce chronic eye irritation and severe skin irritation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to spray mist may produce respiratory tract irritation leading to frequent attacks of bronchial infection.
      - mirimir 10y ago
        https://www.amazon.com/Hepkat-Provisioners-Stink-Bombs-Practical/dp/B00EUU9GJC https://www.amazon.com/Hepkat-Provisioners-Stink-Bombs-Pract...
      - gus_massa 10y ago
        It's as nasty as the acetic acid, also a '3' for health effects and a '2' for flammability. http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922769 http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922769 For this kind of chemical compounds it's very important to consider the concentration before getting scared. If you put a 5% of acetic acid in water, you essentially get vinegar. No one is afraid of vinegar and it has almost no health risks. I think it would be not a good idea to put your head in a bathtub full of vinegar. (I never tried.) But vinegar is safe enough to use it to rinse your hair, drop it in your hands and drink a small amount of it. (Just don't put it in your eyes!) I worked a few decades ago with acetic acid 100% a few times. For historical reasons it's called Glacial Acetic Acid. Very nasty stuff. If someone opens a bottle the smell is so strong that it will make you weep in spite you are a few foots away. It's better to open it only in a fume hood, or something that keeps the smell away. I never tried to touch it. I think that if you touch it and wash immediately there are no risk, perhaps a small rush. But definitely keep it far away from the eyes and nose. I agree with the sibling comment that it was more a stinky bomb that something designed to kill someone. Anyway, the police should stop them, but without exaggerating the risks. For example in a recent soccer math in Argentina one of the spectators throw some kind of homemade pepper spray to the players of the other team. It was too strong and a few payers had to go to the hospital. Autotranslation: https://translate.google.com.ar/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es-419&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clarin.com%2Fdeportes%2Ffutbol%2Fboca-juniors%2Fpanadero-pimienta-jodita-culpo-boca_0_H1FjcJKO.html&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com.ar/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y...
- r00fus 10y ago
  But hey - if you look at law enforcement as a business, then spurious/weak reasons for arrest or investigation simply increase your business flow and reasons for existing. The problem is that the media and judiciary are completely coopted, letting the corporatization of law enforcement continue unchecked. Where is the slap-down in the courts (or court of public opinion) of police serving money instead of their constituency? tl;dr - it's a symptom of a bigger problem.
  - madgar 10y ago
    the judiciary is bound by precedent, and there are 5-4 conservative Supreme Court rulings from the 80s to the early 2000s that cemented the status quo into place. With Trump/Pence as POTUS the judiciary will be hamstrung for years barring a truly massive public groundswell behind reversing some of those decisions - if that happened, you might see a single judge flip. Whether that's enough depends on who dies before 2021.
lazaroclapp 10y ago
Arms dealers have some responsibility about which governments and government agencies they sell arms to. At some point the German government forbade selling of certain broad categories of arms to the Mexican military, based on observing how often those arms ended up in the hands of drug cartels. I am from Mexico and we shouldn't be in any list that allows selling spy software, yet for some reason we are considered a Wassenaar Arrangement nation, so in principle we get a lot of sophisticated arms despite being constantly brought up for state violence and torture by the OAS ( http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/reports/pdfs/Mexico2016-en.pdf http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/reports/pdfs/Mexico2016-en.pdf )
- patsplat 10y ago
  Agreed, but it still comes down to demanding more from law enforcement agencies in multiple jurisdictions. Contractors exist to implement the policies of their clients. What agency holds the contract? Who manages the system? Which electeds approved the budget? Which electeds administered the program? Laying this at the feet of the contractor is not going far enough.
  - lazaroclapp 10y ago
    Believe me, we are demanding, but it is not clear we will ever know any of that. We have been fighting for 2+ years to try to get to the bottom of a case in which 43 students were murdered, apparently by the army and the federal police, and that took an intervention by the O.A.S., pressure from the E.U. and forensic investigators from other countries in Latin America going into Mexico with the backing of their own governments. So far we are starting to get a picture, but not a clear one and none of the people implicated by journalists or international organizations has been punished so far, only those people the federal government has chosen to scapegoat. This is still great progress over the incident in 1968, where the culprits of another student massacre essentially died of old age before the government recognized fault. That's Mexico for you. Keep in mind we were a de facto party dictatorship up until 2000 and the governments after that have been exceedingly corrupt and violent. That's why I am saying that governments with a functioning rule of law shouldn't be selling spyware and arms to Mexico. Nothing above excuses the actions of the government, and be sure that activists will try all legal avenues and all protest avenues to get to the bottom of it. But if the people doing this are even remotely well connected, we won't get them, we will get 4 construction workers who will go on tv with clear torture signs to declare they did it (that was what happened with the killing of the 43 students, among other things).

tn13 10y ago

Plenty of stories out there how completely normal individuals are targeted as terrorists. Example: http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/14/no-fly-list-challenged-stanford-student-wrongly-labeled-a-terrorist-judge-says/ http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/14/no-fly-list-challenged...

ChuckMcM 10y ago

Two most common misleading statements by law enforcement these days: 1) They were resisting arrest. 2) They are terrorists. Makes it hard to find cases where there are actual terrorists or people actually resisting arrest.

Natsu 10y ago
It's not easy to tell who is who unless they investigate, so they end up investigating the innocent as well as the guilty. Take the inauguration, there were so many peaceful protesters, coupled with a few idiots who chose to be violent, like this guy, who was charged in a plot to attack people by dumping acid into a ventilation system at an inaugural party: https://mpdc.dc.gov/release/arrest-made-conspiracy-commit-assault https://mpdc.dc.gov/release/arrest-made-conspiracy-commit-as...
- forgotmysn 10y ago
  I feel like that distinction isn't as hard as you're making it sound
  - Natsu 10y ago
    I'm sure there are what appear to be clear-cut cases, especially in retrospect. I'm also sure that all of our 99% accurate heuristics we use in daily life will fail spectacularly on some minority of cases when applied 100,000 times.
- mirimir 10y ago
  OK, butyric acid aka the smell of sour milk. Me, I would have picked butanethiol. But my first thought, reading "dumping acid", was LSD ;)
  - Natsu 10y ago
    Like a lot of things, that depends on exposure and concentration. Uncontrolled exposure from concentrated acid delivered via ventilation systems could easily end up on the higher end of the scale, even ignoring second order effects like an unplanned evacuation of a building surrounded by protests. The acid has a '3' for health effects (and a '2' for flammability). https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923216 https://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923216 Potential Acute Health Effects: Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion. Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant), of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator). Liquid or spray mist may produce tissue damage particularly on mucous membranes of eyes, mouth and respiratory tract. Skin contact may produce burns. Inhalation of the spray mist may produce severe irritation of respiratory tract, characterized by coughing, choking, or shortness of breath. Potential Chronic Health Effects: The substance is toxic to lungs, the nervous system, mucous membranes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated or prolonged contact with spray mist may produce chronic eye irritation and severe skin irritation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to spray mist may produce respiratory tract irritation leading to frequent attacks of bronchial infection.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      https://www.amazon.com/Hepkat-Provisioners-Stink-Bombs-Practical/dp/B00EUU9GJC https://www.amazon.com/Hepkat-Provisioners-Stink-Bombs-Pract...
    - gus_massa 10y ago
      It's as nasty as the acetic acid, also a '3' for health effects and a '2' for flammability. http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922769 http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922769 For this kind of chemical compounds it's very important to consider the concentration before getting scared. If you put a 5% of acetic acid in water, you essentially get vinegar. No one is afraid of vinegar and it has almost no health risks. I think it would be not a good idea to put your head in a bathtub full of vinegar. (I never tried.) But vinegar is safe enough to use it to rinse your hair, drop it in your hands and drink a small amount of it. (Just don't put it in your eyes!) I worked a few decades ago with acetic acid 100% a few times. For historical reasons it's called Glacial Acetic Acid. Very nasty stuff. If someone opens a bottle the smell is so strong that it will make you weep in spite you are a few foots away. It's better to open it only in a fume hood, or something that keeps the smell away. I never tried to touch it. I think that if you touch it and wash immediately there are no risk, perhaps a small rush. But definitely keep it far away from the eyes and nose. I agree with the sibling comment that it was more a stinky bomb that something designed to kill someone. Anyway, the police should stop them, but without exaggerating the risks. For example in a recent soccer math in Argentina one of the spectators throw some kind of homemade pepper spray to the players of the other team. It was too strong and a few payers had to go to the hospital. Autotranslation: https://translate.google.com.ar/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es-419&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clarin.com%2Fdeportes%2Ffutbol%2Fboca-juniors%2Fpanadero-pimienta-jodita-culpo-boca_0_H1FjcJKO.html&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com.ar/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y...
r00fus 10y ago
But hey - if you look at law enforcement as a business, then spurious/weak reasons for arrest or investigation simply increase your business flow and reasons for existing. The problem is that the media and judiciary are completely coopted, letting the corporatization of law enforcement continue unchecked. Where is the slap-down in the courts (or court of public opinion) of police serving money instead of their constituency? tl;dr - it's a symptom of a bigger problem.
- madgar 10y ago
  the judiciary is bound by precedent, and there are 5-4 conservative Supreme Court rulings from the 80s to the early 2000s that cemented the status quo into place. With Trump/Pence as POTUS the judiciary will be hamstrung for years barring a truly massive public groundswell behind reversing some of those decisions - if that happened, you might see a single judge flip. Whether that's enough depends on who dies before 2021.

lazaroclapp 10y ago

Arms dealers have some responsibility about which governments and government agencies they sell arms to. At some point the German government forbade selling of certain broad categories of arms to the Mexican military, based on observing how often those arms ended up in the hands of drug cartels. I am from Mexico and we shouldn't be in any list that allows selling spy software, yet for some reason we are considered a Wassenaar Arrangement nation, so in principle we get a lot of sophisticated arms despite being constantly brought up for state violence and torture by the OAS ( http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/reports/pdfs/Mexico2016-en.pdf http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/reports/pdfs/Mexico2016-en.pdf )

patsplat 10y ago
Agreed, but it still comes down to demanding more from law enforcement agencies in multiple jurisdictions. Contractors exist to implement the policies of their clients. What agency holds the contract? Who manages the system? Which electeds approved the budget? Which electeds administered the program? Laying this at the feet of the contractor is not going far enough.
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  Believe me, we are demanding, but it is not clear we will ever know any of that. We have been fighting for 2+ years to try to get to the bottom of a case in which 43 students were murdered, apparently by the army and the federal police, and that took an intervention by the O.A.S., pressure from the E.U. and forensic investigators from other countries in Latin America going into Mexico with the backing of their own governments. So far we are starting to get a picture, but not a clear one and none of the people implicated by journalists or international organizations has been punished so far, only those people the federal government has chosen to scapegoat. This is still great progress over the incident in 1968, where the culprits of another student massacre essentially died of old age before the government recognized fault. That's Mexico for you. Keep in mind we were a de facto party dictatorship up until 2000 and the governments after that have been exceedingly corrupt and violent. That's why I am saying that governments with a functioning rule of law shouldn't be selling spyware and arms to Mexico. Nothing above excuses the actions of the government, and be sure that activists will try all legal avenues and all protest avenues to get to the bottom of it. But if the people doing this are even remotely well connected, we won't get them, we will get 4 construction workers who will go on tv with clear torture signs to declare they did it (that was what happened with the killing of the 43 students, among other things).