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For the record: Georgia initiated their conflict with Russia.

by yokisan 10y ago

macintux 10y ago
ish
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
geoka9 10y ago
This is not true. Unless by "initiated their conflict" you mean cessation from the USSR in 1991.
- yokisan 10y ago
  Sigh. Must we? "EU investigation says Tbilisi launched indiscriminate assault on South Ossetia..with a massive artillery attack" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attack...
  - atsaloli 10y ago
    South Ossetia used to be part of Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
    - dagenleg 10y ago
      And Kosovo used to be part of Serbia. Just because a region is/was a part of your country does not mean you can do whatever you want in there.
      - geoka9 10y ago
        So I guess you can do shelling and ethnic cleansing of those who don't support your desire to break away? http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_Of_Georgian_Villages/1349256.html http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_...
        dagenleg 10y ago
        Both sides committed crimes in Kosovo, you know. History rarely is as black and white as you would want it to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Kosovo_Albanian_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#K...
        geoka9 10y ago
        My argument is that South Ossetian leaders did do "whatever they wanted" there, and the Russians condoned and helped them, contrary to what you're alluding to above.
    - yokisan 10y ago
      Crimea used to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea A poor argument, we can agree.
      - seppin 10y ago
        Hong Kong used to be a Chinese fishing village. I can't believe people use this argument with a straight face.
    - krakensden 10y ago
      Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. That wikipedia article toes the Georgian line, which is sort of disappointing, but they do cite the EU report (via the 'world socialist news', which I don't really want to cite) that the pretext was manufactured. The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a crazy point of view, the Georgians were shelling a mostly non-Georgian city. The US is also not a super neutral observer, we were selling them tons of weapons, and the Georgians were pandering pretty hard to us. It looks like the full EU report is mirrored by the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_report.pdf http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_...
      - geoka9 10y ago
        > The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a crazy point of view No, it's not crazy, it's just pure propaganda. 25% of Georgian Ossetians lived (and continue to live) outside of South Ossetia[1]. Not to mention that the Russians were happy to allow the _real_ ethnic cleansing of Georgians to happen after their invasion[2]. And the Ossetian militia had been shelling Georgian villages before it all happened[3] (most probably, with weapons provided by Russia). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_... http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_Of_Georgian_Villages/1349256.html http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_...
      - seppin 10y ago
        > Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. This is the Russian argument, if a sovereign country has a majority of ethnic Russians, it's ok to invade that country on their behalf. As a neutral, do you actually agree with this? It seems crazy.
        rhino369 10y ago
        There isn't a good solution to this problem. And it's a problem Americans often have a very hard time understanding due to cultural differences.[1] But the world does step in occasionally to stop one ethnicity from beating up another even within the same country. NATO did so in Yugoslavia. But it's also used as an excuse for expansionism. The build up to WW2 was Germany doing this exact thing. But post WWII European history also has a lot of ethnic regrouping. All Germans were put back inside Germany. Borders are drawn to group people. Mixed ethnic nations broke apart into single ethnic countries. This question is at the heart of the blood bath in twenty century Europe. [1]- Americans treat ethnicity very differently than most cultures since we have such diverse ethnicities with no little to no cultural heritage leftover. America entirely decouples ethnicity and nationality. So it seems strange that it's such an important force in other countries.
  - geoka9 10y ago
    South Ossetia is Georgia. Which even the Russians claimed at the time.
- barry-cotter 10y ago
  Georgia has not had control over South Ossetia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. While it's still part of Georgia under international law it's never been under the control of the modern Georgian state. Said state invaded South Ossetia because they thought NATO (the USA) would back them up and the Russians crushed them.
maze-le 10y ago
Its never as easy as that. First of all, if anything the conflict was primarily between Geogria and South Ossetia, Russia only intervened on behalf of South Ossetia. And before the war started, both South Ossetian seperatists and Geogian backed militiamen were accused of ethnic clensing. Georgian villages in South Ossetia were shelled by artillery, while in the northern central parts of Geogria, South Ossetian families were eveicted from their homes and driven out of the country. It is notable that both war crimes were not comitted by regular forces but by militiamen, where it is not always clear under wich control they stood, or if the state/army has actually given orders.

For the record: Georgia initiated their conflict with Russia.

by yokisan 10y ago

For the record: Georgia initiated their conflict with Russia.

macintux 10y ago

ish

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

geoka9 10y ago

This is not true. Unless by "initiated their conflict" you mean cessation from the USSR in 1991.

yokisan 10y ago
Sigh. Must we? "EU investigation says Tbilisi launched indiscriminate assault on South Ossetia..with a massive artillery attack" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attack...
- atsaloli 10y ago
  South Ossetia used to be part of Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
  - dagenleg 10y ago
    And Kosovo used to be part of Serbia. Just because a region is/was a part of your country does not mean you can do whatever you want in there.
    - geoka9 10y ago
      So I guess you can do shelling and ethnic cleansing of those who don't support your desire to break away? http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_Of_Georgian_Villages/1349256.html http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_...
      - dagenleg 10y ago
        Both sides committed crimes in Kosovo, you know. History rarely is as black and white as you would want it to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Kosovo_Albanian_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#K...
        geoka9 10y ago
        My argument is that South Ossetian leaders did do "whatever they wanted" there, and the Russians condoned and helped them, contrary to what you're alluding to above.
  - yokisan 10y ago
    Crimea used to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea A poor argument, we can agree.
    - seppin 10y ago
      Hong Kong used to be a Chinese fishing village. I can't believe people use this argument with a straight face.
  - krakensden 10y ago
    Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. That wikipedia article toes the Georgian line, which is sort of disappointing, but they do cite the EU report (via the 'world socialist news', which I don't really want to cite) that the pretext was manufactured. The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a crazy point of view, the Georgians were shelling a mostly non-Georgian city. The US is also not a super neutral observer, we were selling them tons of weapons, and the Georgians were pandering pretty hard to us. It looks like the full EU report is mirrored by the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_report.pdf http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_09_09_iiffmgc_...
    - geoka9 10y ago
      > The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a crazy point of view No, it's not crazy, it's just pure propaganda. 25% of Georgian Ossetians lived (and continue to live) outside of South Ossetia[1]. Not to mention that the Russians were happy to allow the _real_ ethnic cleansing of Georgians to happen after their invasion[2]. And the Ossetian militia had been shelling Georgian villages before it all happened[3] (most probably, with weapons provided by Russia). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_South_Ossetia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_... http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_Of_Georgian_Villages/1349256.html http://www.rferl.org/a/Eyewitness_Accounts_Confirm_Shelling_...
    - seppin 10y ago
      > Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. This is the Russian argument, if a sovereign country has a majority of ethnic Russians, it's ok to invade that country on their behalf. As a neutral, do you actually agree with this? It seems crazy.
      - rhino369 10y ago
        There isn't a good solution to this problem. And it's a problem Americans often have a very hard time understanding due to cultural differences.[1] But the world does step in occasionally to stop one ethnicity from beating up another even within the same country. NATO did so in Yugoslavia. But it's also used as an excuse for expansionism. The build up to WW2 was Germany doing this exact thing. But post WWII European history also has a lot of ethnic regrouping. All Germans were put back inside Germany. Borders are drawn to group people. Mixed ethnic nations broke apart into single ethnic countries. This question is at the heart of the blood bath in twenty century Europe. [1]- Americans treat ethnicity very differently than most cultures since we have such diverse ethnicities with no little to no cultural heritage leftover. America entirely decouples ethnicity and nationality. So it seems strange that it's such an important force in other countries.
- geoka9 10y ago
  South Ossetia is Georgia. Which even the Russians claimed at the time.
barry-cotter 10y ago
Georgia has not had control over South Ossetia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. While it's still part of Georgia under international law it's never been under the control of the modern Georgian state. Said state invaded South Ossetia because they thought NATO (the USA) would back them up and the Russians crushed them.

maze-le 10y ago

Its never as easy as that. First of all, if anything the conflict was primarily between Geogria and South Ossetia, Russia only intervened on behalf of South Ossetia. And before the war started, both South Ossetian seperatists and Geogian backed militiamen were accused of ethnic clensing. Georgian villages in South Ossetia were shelled by artillery, while in the northern central parts of Geogria, South Ossetian families were eveicted from their homes and driven out of the country. It is notable that both war crimes were not comitted by regular forces but by militiamen, where it is not always clear under wich control they stood, or if the state/army has actually given orders.