4 ms·

While it seems a good idea, how does this even work in practice?

l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
Simple. Re-register the device under your (buyer's) name or reset device to the factory defaults & re-register. Almost like buying a used car from somebody. The seller transfers the title to you, via a signature, after you pay. Then you the buyer now legally own the car & must register it with the DMV; get inspected, new plates etc.
dqv 10y ago
>how does this even work in practice? It will be legal to fix your own tractor. It will also be legal to change the software on devices you own.
- bluGill 10y ago
  It is legal to fix your tractor. I work for John Deere (though of course do not speak for them), and we are proud that you can by the repair manuals for every tractor we ever made, and most parts are still available. We are made at the computer industry because some of our newer (We consider a 15 year old tractor fairly new though realistically it is probably worn out) tractors have chips that cannot be bought anymore. When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want: they want to disable the emissions controls. A qualified engineer (which most mechanics are not - but I suspect those reading this are) given the source code we don't give out can get our engines a little more fuel efficient at the expense of not meeting emissions, or a little more powerful at the expensive of being less reliable. When you read the above you will begin to understand why we made the engineering compromises we did, and see why we don't really want to give out the requested information. It isn't necessary to do repairs, but it is necessary to do things that you shouldn't do. That is not to say I'm against the idea of this bill, just that the justification you are being sold is built on a lie. I think this bill needs to be carefully written to address this.
  - humanrebar 10y ago
    > When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want I don't own a tractor, but if I did, I'd want the option to be able to 'root' the tractor and install different software on it. You shouldn't have to ask permission, violate EULAs, or violate the law to innovate.
    - bluGill 10y ago
      So you say. And this crowd is probably more likely than average to do so. However would you really touch the engine - remember a mistake can destroy your engine, and there isn't much interesting there for the most part. What you would do it connect to the CAN bus and read all the data there - same as what most people do for cars - except there is a lot more interesting data for you to work with. There is not need to root the tractors, or install different software, just install your own computer, connect it to the CAN bus and do what you want. Our 10 year old computers that do this on a 200mhz CPU sell for $5000 - I'm convinced you would want something more modern that is also cheaper for your experiments. There is one exception to the above: if you want to do computer steering you need an encryption key that we don't generally make available to the public. There is too many safety concerns to let us just give that away.
      - gue5t 10y ago
        Why does your security model treat your customers as the adversary? They can already steer the tractor in any direction they want, for any nefarious purpose. You're just removing their ability to automate away labor (steering). This is essentially an economic, not a safety-oriented, policy.
        chrisparsons 10y ago
        There's a very clear person at fault if said nefarious driver drives the tractor into a person/object-of-value. If it's an autopilot, the liability issues are much more murky.
      - 10y ago

Simple. Re-register the device under your (buyer's) name or reset device to the factory defaults & re-register. Almost like buying a used car from somebody. The seller transfers the title to you, via a signature, after you pay. Then you the buyer now legally own the car & must register it with the DMV; get inspected, new plates etc.

dqv 10y ago

>how does this even work in practice? It will be legal to fix your own tractor. It will also be legal to change the software on devices you own.

bluGill 10y ago
It is legal to fix your tractor. I work for John Deere (though of course do not speak for them), and we are proud that you can by the repair manuals for every tractor we ever made, and most parts are still available. We are made at the computer industry because some of our newer (We consider a 15 year old tractor fairly new though realistically it is probably worn out) tractors have chips that cannot be bought anymore. When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want: they want to disable the emissions controls. A qualified engineer (which most mechanics are not - but I suspect those reading this are) given the source code we don't give out can get our engines a little more fuel efficient at the expense of not meeting emissions, or a little more powerful at the expensive of being less reliable. When you read the above you will begin to understand why we made the engineering compromises we did, and see why we don't really want to give out the requested information. It isn't necessary to do repairs, but it is necessary to do things that you shouldn't do. That is not to say I'm against the idea of this bill, just that the justification you are being sold is built on a lie. I think this bill needs to be carefully written to address this.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  > When I challenge people on this I eventually get down to what people really want I don't own a tractor, but if I did, I'd want the option to be able to 'root' the tractor and install different software on it. You shouldn't have to ask permission, violate EULAs, or violate the law to innovate.
  - bluGill 10y ago
    So you say. And this crowd is probably more likely than average to do so. However would you really touch the engine - remember a mistake can destroy your engine, and there isn't much interesting there for the most part. What you would do it connect to the CAN bus and read all the data there - same as what most people do for cars - except there is a lot more interesting data for you to work with. There is not need to root the tractors, or install different software, just install your own computer, connect it to the CAN bus and do what you want. Our 10 year old computers that do this on a 200mhz CPU sell for $5000 - I'm convinced you would want something more modern that is also cheaper for your experiments. There is one exception to the above: if you want to do computer steering you need an encryption key that we don't generally make available to the public. There is too many safety concerns to let us just give that away.
    - gue5t 10y ago
      Why does your security model treat your customers as the adversary? They can already steer the tractor in any direction they want, for any nefarious purpose. You're just removing their ability to automate away labor (steering). This is essentially an economic, not a safety-oriented, policy.
      - chrisparsons 10y ago
        There's a very clear person at fault if said nefarious driver drives the tractor into a person/object-of-value. If it's an autopilot, the liability issues are much more murky.
    - 10y ago