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The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great

The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great depression and a precursor to WWII. It's as if, whenever a financial crisis happens, people go dumb.

jerf 10y ago
That's moving the goalposts. Nothing about what you said makes it the result of Trump's administration. Also, might I just point out the irony of accusing people of being "anti-intellectual" in reaction to the financial crisis that is precisely the one the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happened. How rational is it to belief false things simply because they carry the label "intellectual"?
- bad_user 10y ago
  It's not moving the goalposts, I was just noticing the global trend that links Brexit, Trump and possibly other upcoming events like Le Pen. > the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happened Well, source please. Not that I don't believe you, but don't remember the deriding or the predictions you're mentioning and it's actually really hard to predict a financial crisis, being dangerous to put a break on the economy based on speculations.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    Check out Debunking Economics. It's kind of a horrible book, but the economic arguments seem sound and are very interesting.
justinlaster 10y ago
Stable economies provide a buffer for the less intelligent parts of society. When you're fed, have money, and feel secure xenophobic and baseless opinions tend to not have any weight. Or at the very least, there's no reason to act on them. People don't go dumb around a financial crisis, they tend to just start acting after one. People get away with having these opinions for so long because our societies have an abundance of resources. You're rarely "punished" in any significant way for your lack of skills, intellectually or otherwise.
DarkKomunalec 10y ago
Xenophobia, or rational self-interest? How is the common worker better-off by allowing immigration? The only advantage I can think of is having the option of abandoning their country to seek better fortunes elsewhere (assuming immigration is a two-way street). What about the great majority who wish to stay in their own countries?
- bad_user 10y ago
  I would call it stupidity, because the biggest threat to jobs is provably automation and not immigrants. Immigrants are occupying either the low end jobs that nobody wants, like what you get in agriculture (e.g. strawberry pickers - if you don't know how that's like, try it out ;-)), cleaning services, etc, or they are occupying the high end jobs, like what you get in Silicon Valley, an industry that creates jobs, or say medical doctors, which are hired because of their expertise or to lower the prices, which in the end translates to lower healthcare bills, etc. Either way, if you ban immigration, you'll get automation, or a crashing economy due to other countries being more competitive. And if you get automation, it's worse than immigrants, because those immigrants are spending their salaries locally, whereas robots don't get salaries. You know, it's funny you should say that. I'm from an ex-communist country from Eastern Europe and let me tell you, the problem with communism was the extreme inefficiency due to the state's incentive of keeping people hired which ultimately led to hunger and the fall of the USSR.
  - DarkKomunalec 10y ago
    You get automation either way - immigration only buys you ten or so years before the costs fall below even immigrant wages, after which you're left with unemployed immigrants. And lets not pretend the availability of cheap labour has nothing to do with jobs being low-end. Medical doctors sure is a funny example to give however - the USA has a lot of immigrants - how well has that worked in keeping healthcare affordable?
    - Elrac 10y ago
      Immigration is keeping health care affordable in Germany and probably a bunch of other European countries. Until the Brexit, cheap foreign labor helped keep prices low in the UK. The USA don't have a problem with immigrants - they have a problem with the runaway corruption of their political leaders. Corporate lobbyists get to write laws for representatives to rubber stamp. The reason the same drugs cost 5x more in the US than in Canada has nothing to do with immigrants.
RodericDay 10y ago
I'm a fairly intellectual guy and I'd say that it's fairly disingenuous to point at "anti-intellectualism" and ignore massive inequality and corruption as party in these latest events. There's plenty of economists running around assuring everyone that Piketty is wrong, inequality doesn't matter, someone being a billionaire doesn't affect someone on welfare who has cheap iPhones, etc. However, I think these defenders of the status quo will be proven wrong. It all rings very hollow. Anti-intellectualism, xenophobia, inequality. Don't forget that last one. It's the one that puts us liberal techies on the hook too.
autokad 10y ago
your being dismissive. they have legitimate complaints that have been ignored for more than a decade. their situation (and really most people) continued to get worse as pro misses of prosperity from globalization landed on a few. maybe they are wrong, but basically they are being called dumb for being pushed into minimum wage jobs and told 'dont worry, we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free community college' and rejecting that offer.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  > they have legitimate complaints... we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free community college' and rejecting that offer So should we throw our sabots at the microcontrollers and robotic arms? Or what? >...free community college I suppose those people have college degrees? Oh, no? So basically they want a well-paying middle class job but feel they're entitled to that wage without getting any education. Feelings of resentment and entitlement aren't mutually exclusive with "going dumb". In fact, they usually co-exist.
ionised 10y ago
And financial crises of varying degrees seem to happen every decade at least. It's almost as if this economic boom > financial crash > war socioeconomic system we have in place is utter insanity.
mason240 10y ago
>The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The Remain campaign certainly was, your comment being evidence.
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Have we tried not allowing financial crises to grow in the first place?

jerf 10y ago

That's moving the goalposts. Nothing about what you said makes it the result of Trump's administration. Also, might I just point out the irony of accusing people of being "anti-intellectual" in reaction to the financial crisis that is precisely the one the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happened. How rational is it to belief false things simply because they carry the label "intellectual"?

bad_user 10y ago
It's not moving the goalposts, I was just noticing the global trend that links Brexit, Trump and possibly other upcoming events like Le Pen. > the intellectuals promised us could never possibly happen under their guidance, and were mocking people for even considering it possible right up to the day it happened Well, source please. Not that I don't believe you, but don't remember the deriding or the predictions you're mentioning and it's actually really hard to predict a financial crisis, being dangerous to put a break on the economy based on speculations.
- mcguire 10y ago
  Check out Debunking Economics. It's kind of a horrible book, but the economic arguments seem sound and are very interesting.

justinlaster 10y ago

Stable economies provide a buffer for the less intelligent parts of society. When you're fed, have money, and feel secure xenophobic and baseless opinions tend to not have any weight. Or at the very least, there's no reason to act on them. People don't go dumb around a financial crisis, they tend to just start acting after one. People get away with having these opinions for so long because our societies have an abundance of resources. You're rarely "punished" in any significant way for your lack of skills, intellectually or otherwise.

DarkKomunalec 10y ago

Xenophobia, or rational self-interest? How is the common worker better-off by allowing immigration? The only advantage I can think of is having the option of abandoning their country to seek better fortunes elsewhere (assuming immigration is a two-way street). What about the great majority who wish to stay in their own countries?

bad_user 10y ago
I would call it stupidity, because the biggest threat to jobs is provably automation and not immigrants. Immigrants are occupying either the low end jobs that nobody wants, like what you get in agriculture (e.g. strawberry pickers - if you don't know how that's like, try it out ;-)), cleaning services, etc, or they are occupying the high end jobs, like what you get in Silicon Valley, an industry that creates jobs, or say medical doctors, which are hired because of their expertise or to lower the prices, which in the end translates to lower healthcare bills, etc. Either way, if you ban immigration, you'll get automation, or a crashing economy due to other countries being more competitive. And if you get automation, it's worse than immigrants, because those immigrants are spending their salaries locally, whereas robots don't get salaries. You know, it's funny you should say that. I'm from an ex-communist country from Eastern Europe and let me tell you, the problem with communism was the extreme inefficiency due to the state's incentive of keeping people hired which ultimately led to hunger and the fall of the USSR.
- DarkKomunalec 10y ago
  You get automation either way - immigration only buys you ten or so years before the costs fall below even immigrant wages, after which you're left with unemployed immigrants. And lets not pretend the availability of cheap labour has nothing to do with jobs being low-end. Medical doctors sure is a funny example to give however - the USA has a lot of immigrants - how well has that worked in keeping healthcare affordable?
  - Elrac 10y ago
    Immigration is keeping health care affordable in Germany and probably a bunch of other European countries. Until the Brexit, cheap foreign labor helped keep prices low in the UK. The USA don't have a problem with immigrants - they have a problem with the runaway corruption of their political leaders. Corporate lobbyists get to write laws for representatives to rubber stamp. The reason the same drugs cost 5x more in the US than in Canada has nothing to do with immigrants.

RodericDay 10y ago

I'm a fairly intellectual guy and I'd say that it's fairly disingenuous to point at "anti-intellectualism" and ignore massive inequality and corruption as party in these latest events. There's plenty of economists running around assuring everyone that Piketty is wrong, inequality doesn't matter, someone being a billionaire doesn't affect someone on welfare who has cheap iPhones, etc. However, I think these defenders of the status quo will be proven wrong. It all rings very hollow. Anti-intellectualism, xenophobia, inequality. Don't forget that last one. It's the one that puts us liberal techies on the hook too.

autokad 10y ago

your being dismissive. they have legitimate complaints that have been ignored for more than a decade. their situation (and really most people) continued to get worse as pro misses of prosperity from globalization landed on a few. maybe they are wrong, but basically they are being called dumb for being pushed into minimum wage jobs and told 'dont worry, we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free community college' and rejecting that offer.

throwaway729 10y ago
> they have legitimate complaints... we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free community college' and rejecting that offer So should we throw our sabots at the microcontrollers and robotic arms? Or what? >...free community college I suppose those people have college degrees? Oh, no? So basically they want a well-paying middle class job but feel they're entitled to that wage without getting any education. Feelings of resentment and entitlement aren't mutually exclusive with "going dumb". In fact, they usually co-exist.

ionised 10y ago

And financial crises of varying degrees seem to happen every decade at least. It's almost as if this economic boom > financial crash > war socioeconomic system we have in place is utter insanity.

mason240 10y ago

>The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The Remain campaign certainly was, your comment being evidence.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

Have we tried not allowing financial crises to grow in the first place?