4 ms·

When I buy a coffee I also don't have to worry about it charging me $5 once a month forever unless I go through a maze of menu options (possibly involving phone

by lojack 10y ago

When I buy a coffee I also don't have to worry about it charging me $5 once a month forever unless I go through a maze of menu options (possibly involving phone calls) to get it to stop.

riprowan 10y ago
Also, when you buy a coffee you don't have to worry that it might contain spyware or malware.
- dhimes 10y ago
  It might make you sick, though.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    There's more regulation wrt food safety than application security.
maneesh 10y ago
Do you worry about this with app store purchases? In app purchases I get it, but I've never been unfairly charged (or found it difficult to cancel) purchases that go through apple or google
- lojack 10y ago
  No, its not typically a concern with non-subscription services. And, yes, it is a concern with subscription services purchased through the Apple App Store (don't use Google). I still have to google how to do it. For reference: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202039 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202039 I'd be impressed if anyone could figure those steps out without visiting that guide first.
  - djrogers 10y ago
    Really? You view your Apple ID and click subscriptions - it's really pretty simple. Added bonus, every subscription is in one place - no worry about deleting the app and losing your ability to cancel. No phone calls needed to cancel - ever - either. Plus, you get an email confirming every subscription and renewal before the renewal is charged, with a link directly to that subscription so you can cancel it. Not sure how it could be made much easier than that...
    - lojack 10y ago
      It's been a while since I had to unsubscribe from something (because I avoid it), but I only wrote that comment after searching for my subscriptions because I remember it being difficult. First place I looked was the App Store. Second place I looked was the iTunes store. After some hunting I even got as far as opening Settings and completely missing the fact that I could select my Apple ID. I actually don't think its purposely hidden. Saying I'd be impressed if anyone found it without googling it was probably a slight exaggeration, but it certainly isn't intuitive to me. As far as emails go, I didn't know that, and you must be seeing something I'm not. I get a receipt with a bunch of links to Apple support. Tried every link and none of them take me directly to the subscription. The point is less to do with Apples implementation of subscription service and more to do with my lack of trust behind them in general. Apple might do better than most, but I've been burned one time too many.
pweissbrod 10y ago
Also when you buy a coffee you dont just download a bytewise clone of a coffee from some repo. An hourly paid person must manually prepare fresh coffee using distributed physical goods multiple times a day and brew the cup full at every brick and mortar location. This is not a very good analogy at all. Free market and competition have already decided the price of quality apps and quality coffee. The only way you can prove this wrong is by actually disrupting the market.
- dhimes 10y ago
  Free market and competition have already decided the price of quality apps and quality coffee I'm not quite convinced here (extending the 'app' concept to other software). Some of the price is subsidized by VC money, and some by advertising. In both cases the consumer/purchaser may not be aware of the real value of their purchase, nor the real cost. So the market hasn't finished speaking IMHO.
- Veen 10y ago
  But does the free market always produce the best results? The free market tells us people want click bait, porn, and cat videos. It tells us that long expensive investigative journalism won't find a market that will support it — that sort of work is expensive. We can take the free market purist view that there needs to be no further discussion on the issue: the market has decided that high-quality journalism doesn't generate enough revenue to support itself, therefore, its intrinsically valueless. Or, we stipulate that high-quality journalism is valuable becauae it has positive effects on society that are beyond the ability of the market to determine. If we think so, it makes sense to talk about how to fund these endevours that aren't reliant on free market forces. (I realize you're talking about apps, but the topic of the article is content, and the same basic principles apply to both)
  - Sacho 10y ago
    Let's assume we agree with both premises - the free market has decided the value of apps, and the free market does not always produce the best results. Since "the free market has decided" means the people participating in that market have made such a decision, there's two strategies you can take - persuasion and coercion. You can already apply most methods of persuasion through the free market - are there any that you think are unable to thrive in it? For coercion, people are naturally resistant to it, even when it is "good for them". Do you think it is a worthwhile investment to spend political capital on laws, regulations, enforcement etc to apply such coercion? Maybe if we use one of the subtler methods, i.e. taxation and subsidy? There's also the problem of the 1A which tends to negate most government action you can take in this sphere.

by lojack 10y ago

When I buy a coffee I also don't have to worry about it charging me $5 once a month forever unless I go through a maze of menu options (possibly involving phone calls) to get it to stop.

riprowan 10y ago

Also, when you buy a coffee you don't have to worry that it might contain spyware or malware.

dhimes 10y ago
It might make you sick, though.
- majewsky 10y ago
  There's more regulation wrt food safety than application security.

maneesh 10y ago

Do you worry about this with app store purchases? In app purchases I get it, but I've never been unfairly charged (or found it difficult to cancel) purchases that go through apple or google

lojack 10y ago
No, its not typically a concern with non-subscription services. And, yes, it is a concern with subscription services purchased through the Apple App Store (don't use Google). I still have to google how to do it. For reference: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202039 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202039 I'd be impressed if anyone could figure those steps out without visiting that guide first.
- djrogers 10y ago
  Really? You view your Apple ID and click subscriptions - it's really pretty simple. Added bonus, every subscription is in one place - no worry about deleting the app and losing your ability to cancel. No phone calls needed to cancel - ever - either. Plus, you get an email confirming every subscription and renewal before the renewal is charged, with a link directly to that subscription so you can cancel it. Not sure how it could be made much easier than that...
  - lojack 10y ago
    It's been a while since I had to unsubscribe from something (because I avoid it), but I only wrote that comment after searching for my subscriptions because I remember it being difficult. First place I looked was the App Store. Second place I looked was the iTunes store. After some hunting I even got as far as opening Settings and completely missing the fact that I could select my Apple ID. I actually don't think its purposely hidden. Saying I'd be impressed if anyone found it without googling it was probably a slight exaggeration, but it certainly isn't intuitive to me. As far as emails go, I didn't know that, and you must be seeing something I'm not. I get a receipt with a bunch of links to Apple support. Tried every link and none of them take me directly to the subscription. The point is less to do with Apples implementation of subscription service and more to do with my lack of trust behind them in general. Apple might do better than most, but I've been burned one time too many.

pweissbrod 10y ago

Also when you buy a coffee you dont just download a bytewise clone of a coffee from some repo. An hourly paid person must manually prepare fresh coffee using distributed physical goods multiple times a day and brew the cup full at every brick and mortar location. This is not a very good analogy at all. Free market and competition have already decided the price of quality apps and quality coffee. The only way you can prove this wrong is by actually disrupting the market.

dhimes 10y ago
Free market and competition have already decided the price of quality apps and quality coffee I'm not quite convinced here (extending the 'app' concept to other software). Some of the price is subsidized by VC money, and some by advertising. In both cases the consumer/purchaser may not be aware of the real value of their purchase, nor the real cost. So the market hasn't finished speaking IMHO.
Veen 10y ago
But does the free market always produce the best results? The free market tells us people want click bait, porn, and cat videos. It tells us that long expensive investigative journalism won't find a market that will support it — that sort of work is expensive. We can take the free market purist view that there needs to be no further discussion on the issue: the market has decided that high-quality journalism doesn't generate enough revenue to support itself, therefore, its intrinsically valueless. Or, we stipulate that high-quality journalism is valuable becauae it has positive effects on society that are beyond the ability of the market to determine. If we think so, it makes sense to talk about how to fund these endevours that aren't reliant on free market forces. (I realize you're talking about apps, but the topic of the article is content, and the same basic principles apply to both)
- Sacho 10y ago
  Let's assume we agree with both premises - the free market has decided the value of apps, and the free market does not always produce the best results. Since "the free market has decided" means the people participating in that market have made such a decision, there's two strategies you can take - persuasion and coercion. You can already apply most methods of persuasion through the free market - are there any that you think are unable to thrive in it? For coercion, people are naturally resistant to it, even when it is "good for them". Do you think it is a worthwhile investment to spend political capital on laws, regulations, enforcement etc to apply such coercion? Maybe if we use one of the subtler methods, i.e. taxation and subsidy? There's also the problem of the 1A which tends to negate most government action you can take in this sphere.