4 ms·

I was just wondering about it the other day while researching the topic: why are there so many dam failures in the states? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_fa

by yread 10y ago

I was just wondering about it the other day while researching the topic: why are there so many dam failures in the states? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_failure#List_of_major_dam_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_failure#List_of_major_dam_... Since 19th century US has the most (well, at least a lot) dam failures. Is it because there are so many? Are they privately owned and the owners just count on declaring bankruptcy if it fails? Is it the engineering, the geology, the maintenance? EDIT: Even such a major project like Hoover Dam was not done properly (it seems grouting curtains were not often used elsewhere) http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/hoover_dam/Grout%20Curtain%20Failure-Hoover%20Dam.pdf http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/hoover_dam/Grout%20Curtain%20Fa...

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
Is that not a result of have many dams, have higher chance of dam failure?
wallace_f 10y ago
I don't know. However, construction projects with ridiculous levels of corruption are not unknown in America.(1) 1 - http://www.workers.org/2006/us/big-dig-0831/ http://www.workers.org/2006/us/big-dig-0831/
Bombthecat 10y ago
My motto: when in doubt, count on greed.
- gonzo41 10y ago
  Think of all the shortcuts happening in all those nuclear plants around the country!
  - tristanj 10y ago
    For nuclear incidents, I'm worried the next one will be in China, not in the states. China is building dozens of nuclear power plants, too quickly for the amount of trained technicians, critics say. There is also a disregard for nuclear safety standards. Last year there were 16 publicly reported incidents at Chinese nuclear power stations. According to RadioFreeAsia [1], > Six [of the 16] incidents involved staff members breaching operational guidelines, and four were caused by a lack of internal communication. More worryingly, six were caused by staff members "pressing the wrong buttons." which shows a lack of training. Another incident, described by the SCMP, tells how a critical alarm system was accidentally turned off 3 months before anyone noticed [2] >An alarm system monitoring the radiation of reactor coolant at a nuclear power plant in Shenzhen was accidentally shut down for three months before the mistake was discovered, although a safety committee insisted the incident did not constitute a safety breach. An official on the "Nuclear Power Station Nuclear Safety Consultative Committee" downplayed the incident saying "There was no harm done.", adding "there is always room for improvement for such a large operation." - [1] China Nuclear Power Plant Incidents Highlight 'Systemic' Safety Concerns http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/concerns-01092017121057.html http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/concerns-0109201712105... [2] ‘No harm done’: alarm at Daya Bay nuclear plant accidentally deactivated for three months http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/2018235/no-harm-done-alarm-chinese-nuclear-plant http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/articl...
    - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
      "More worryingly, six were caused by staff members "pressing the wrong buttons." I'm sure in one of the classic UI books (maybe Psychology of Everyday Things by Norman) there's a photo from a nuclear power plant, where there's two giant levers right next to each other, and the plant workers have attached a handle from a beer pump to one of them to distinguish it from the other, because as built they were identical and they kept pulling the wrong one. edit: found a page referencing it, but the actual image has gone: http://bactra.org/reviews/everyday-things/nukewiser.html http://bactra.org/reviews/everyday-things/nukewiser.html You can see it here: https://issuu.com/design.nerve/docs/the_design_of_everyday_things https://issuu.com/design.nerve/docs/the_design_of_everyday_t... Page 95 as the book is numbered, but page 111 in the web interface control.
    - rurban 10y ago
      But nobody else would be so reckless to build nuclear power plants on the ring of fire, or in major hurricane areas. Only Japan and the USA do. (Diablo, Fukushima, South Texas - even a crazy experimental one with overlarge vessels)
      - tristanj 10y ago
        It's clear China has the exact issues you described. About half their nuclear power plants are in major typhoon areas; and plants in fujian and sichuan (totaling a half-dozen) are subject to major earthquakes.
    - gonzo41 10y ago
      In the context of this Dam and other systems like nuclear power the fact that keeps coming home is that we (humans / our current culture) are generally bad at looking after systems over a long time. I'd be money once this settles down, people will find and engineer report about this dam where someone recommends spending 100k on some detailed testing and some drilled cement injection to sure up the spill way. And then a week later they will find the minutes from the meeting were the administrators said the risk wasn't there so don't worry. Saved some money.
coldtea 10y ago
>I was just wondering about it the other day while researching the topic: why are there so many dam failures in the states? Given that, anybody want to bet on the safety of nuclear reactors?
- xenophonf 10y ago
  I'll take that bet.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Well, it's always "different this time", because "newer designs". Meanwhile countless tones of toxic waster from said reactors are also transported through regular highways and roads en route to disposal and/or are dumped in the sea by governments and "cheapest offer" subcontractors (including the mafia [3]). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ministers-admit-nuclear-waste-was-dumped-in-sea-1248343.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ministers-admit-nuclear-wa... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304773104579268563658319196 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304773104579268... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste_dumping_by_the_'Ndrangheta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste_dumping_by_the_'Nd...
    - xenophonf 10y ago
      As I understand it, coal-fired power plants emit more radiation than nuclear power plants: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... Until sufficient solar and wind power generation comes online, I would rather we use nuclear and gas-fired power plants, and in that order. I think that on the balance nuclear power is cleaner. The sooner we get off fossil fuels, the better.
brentdax 10y ago
The US is #2 in large dams with about 9,000. China is #1 with nearly 24,000, but their dam construction has almost all been since 1949. So my guess is that it's a combination of the US having many dams, and having had them for many years. Source: http://www.icold-cigb.org/article/GB/world_register/general_synthesis/number-of-dams-by-country-members http://www.icold-cigb.org/article/GB/world_register/general_...

by yread 10y ago

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

Is that not a result of have many dams, have higher chance of dam failure?

wallace_f 10y ago

I don't know. However, construction projects with ridiculous levels of corruption are not unknown in America.(1) 1 - http://www.workers.org/2006/us/big-dig-0831/ http://www.workers.org/2006/us/big-dig-0831/

Bombthecat 10y ago

My motto: when in doubt, count on greed.

gonzo41 10y ago
Think of all the shortcuts happening in all those nuclear plants around the country!
- tristanj 10y ago
  For nuclear incidents, I'm worried the next one will be in China, not in the states. China is building dozens of nuclear power plants, too quickly for the amount of trained technicians, critics say. There is also a disregard for nuclear safety standards. Last year there were 16 publicly reported incidents at Chinese nuclear power stations. According to RadioFreeAsia [1], > Six [of the 16] incidents involved staff members breaching operational guidelines, and four were caused by a lack of internal communication. More worryingly, six were caused by staff members "pressing the wrong buttons." which shows a lack of training. Another incident, described by the SCMP, tells how a critical alarm system was accidentally turned off 3 months before anyone noticed [2] >An alarm system monitoring the radiation of reactor coolant at a nuclear power plant in Shenzhen was accidentally shut down for three months before the mistake was discovered, although a safety committee insisted the incident did not constitute a safety breach. An official on the "Nuclear Power Station Nuclear Safety Consultative Committee" downplayed the incident saying "There was no harm done.", adding "there is always room for improvement for such a large operation." - [1] China Nuclear Power Plant Incidents Highlight 'Systemic' Safety Concerns http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/concerns-01092017121057.html http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/concerns-0109201712105... [2] ‘No harm done’: alarm at Daya Bay nuclear plant accidentally deactivated for three months http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/2018235/no-harm-done-alarm-chinese-nuclear-plant http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/articl...
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    "More worryingly, six were caused by staff members "pressing the wrong buttons." I'm sure in one of the classic UI books (maybe Psychology of Everyday Things by Norman) there's a photo from a nuclear power plant, where there's two giant levers right next to each other, and the plant workers have attached a handle from a beer pump to one of them to distinguish it from the other, because as built they were identical and they kept pulling the wrong one. edit: found a page referencing it, but the actual image has gone: http://bactra.org/reviews/everyday-things/nukewiser.html http://bactra.org/reviews/everyday-things/nukewiser.html You can see it here: https://issuu.com/design.nerve/docs/the_design_of_everyday_things https://issuu.com/design.nerve/docs/the_design_of_everyday_t... Page 95 as the book is numbered, but page 111 in the web interface control.
  - rurban 10y ago
    But nobody else would be so reckless to build nuclear power plants on the ring of fire, or in major hurricane areas. Only Japan and the USA do. (Diablo, Fukushima, South Texas - even a crazy experimental one with overlarge vessels)
    - tristanj 10y ago
      It's clear China has the exact issues you described. About half their nuclear power plants are in major typhoon areas; and plants in fujian and sichuan (totaling a half-dozen) are subject to major earthquakes.
  - gonzo41 10y ago
    In the context of this Dam and other systems like nuclear power the fact that keeps coming home is that we (humans / our current culture) are generally bad at looking after systems over a long time. I'd be money once this settles down, people will find and engineer report about this dam where someone recommends spending 100k on some detailed testing and some drilled cement injection to sure up the spill way. And then a week later they will find the minutes from the meeting were the administrators said the risk wasn't there so don't worry. Saved some money.

coldtea 10y ago

>I was just wondering about it the other day while researching the topic: why are there so many dam failures in the states? Given that, anybody want to bet on the safety of nuclear reactors?

xenophonf 10y ago
I'll take that bet.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Well, it's always "different this time", because "newer designs". Meanwhile countless tones of toxic waster from said reactors are also transported through regular highways and roads en route to disposal and/or are dumped in the sea by governments and "cheapest offer" subcontractors (including the mafia [3]). [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ministers-admit-nuclear-waste-was-dumped-in-sea-1248343.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ministers-admit-nuclear-wa... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304773104579268563658319196 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304773104579268... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste_dumping_by_the_'Ndrangheta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste_dumping_by_the_'Nd...
  - xenophonf 10y ago
    As I understand it, coal-fired power plants emit more radiation than nuclear power plants: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... Until sufficient solar and wind power generation comes online, I would rather we use nuclear and gas-fired power plants, and in that order. I think that on the balance nuclear power is cleaner. The sooner we get off fossil fuels, the better.

brentdax 10y ago

The US is #2 in large dams with about 9,000. China is #1 with nearly 24,000, but their dam construction has almost all been since 1949. So my guess is that it's a combination of the US having many dams, and having had them for many years. Source: http://www.icold-cigb.org/article/GB/world_register/general_synthesis/number-of-dams-by-country-members http://www.icold-cigb.org/article/GB/world_register/general_...