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I think your mindset is part of the problem... WHEN someone works isn't a fundamental issue. IF we're talking retail, thats an obvious exception. If we're ta

I think your mindset is part of the problem... WHEN someone works isn't a fundamental issue. IF we're talking retail, thats an obvious exception. If we're talking a job where the employee isnt directly contacting customers, then the time they work is largely less important. The most efficient team I've worked on in my career was made up from people around the world, there were 9 of us, everyone single one was in a different timezone, some 12 hours off from each other... and we got more done as a team than any Team I've been on before or sense... and it was largely due to the nature of our hours... we had to make sure we buttoned our shit up, we documented it well, we communicated VERY efficiently and effectively... etc. I know it doesn't work for every position at every company, no single thing does, but to consider 9-5 (or any set schedule in particular) "fundamental" to business is short-sided at best...

flootch 10y ago
Yeah, retail, food, healthcare, transportation, maintenance, manufacturing, trash pickup, almost everything really. But nah, hell with anyone whose job ain't yours.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  Which is covered by the whole "customer facing" thing I said... and even caveated against. My point still stands though, its not "fundamental" to work in general.
jimmywanger 10y ago
No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul trucking, repairman, and deliveryman. The only job I can think of that won't get mostly automated away are either jobs that require either/both lots of creative talent (such as a highly skilled engineer, artist, etc) or require an actual onsite presence (contractor, building inspector, pest control.)
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  "No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul trucking, repairman, and deliveryman." What about those, if you're not interacting with the customer, requires a certain time? A repairman can work any time if hes not dealing with the customer - as long as the job is done on time. The same for all of these. Most of the things you listed are customer facing... which is why they have timeframes, so you can interact with the customer (or have access, etc).
  - sheepmullet 10y ago
    A lot of jobs require coordination with other people. A truck driver can arrive whenever they want provided there are staff ready to unload when they arrive. An uncoordinated house build can take 2-3x as long due to trades waiting on each other. Etc.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    > What about those, if you're not interacting with the customer, requires a certain time Well, two things. First, the article mentions having to be in a certain place at a certain time. You're just addressing the time component. Most jobs still need you to actually be there, such as trades and long haul trucking. (long haul trucking is the most common job in the united states http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-the-most-common-job-in-every-state http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-t...) > Most of the things you listed are customer facing I don't know what your definition of customer facing is. Long haul trucking certainly isn't, and if you're a welder, you don't actually have to see the customer. In fact, you usually talk to your account manager who dispatches you out to customer sites. > as long as the job is done on time No man is an island. Most of the time, you're part of a long chain of dependencies to get things done. If you're part of a team, you have to show up when they show up. You also have hard deadlines in order to unblock the people downstream for you. If the framing isn't done on schedule for a house, the electrical can't go in, and if the electrical isn't in, the drywall can't go in. You can't just "make up time" on the weekends.
kristineberth 10y ago
I'm all for flexible work arrangements for people, no matter what their gender. But I have to say I disagree with you. Many roles are not necessarily customer facing but require a lot of interaction with a team. In the startup world the pace at which you have to operate is relentless, and in many roles it's critical that numerous people work together on a variety of projects. Yes, you can dial someone in. You can try to schedule meetings around their particular schedule. But ultimately it is SO much easier to get things done if you're all in the same place (the office) for relatively similar core hours day-in and day-out. Ideas arise out of conversations. People end up becoming privvy to information and conversations that are perhaps only tangentially related to their role. Or they end up joining new projects rather informally and organically. Which is exactly what often leads to (and prepares you for) more senior roles. There are trade-offs that have to be made to work remotely or to have less face-to-face interaction with your teammates than others. In many cases these negatively impact your ability to move up, to succeed or to function well with a team. This is of course not true for every role or company, but it's true for many.

flootch 10y ago

Yeah, retail, food, healthcare, transportation, maintenance, manufacturing, trash pickup, almost everything really. But nah, hell with anyone whose job ain't yours.

jmcdiesel 10y ago
Which is covered by the whole "customer facing" thing I said... and even caveated against. My point still stands though, its not "fundamental" to work in general.

jimmywanger 10y ago

No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul trucking, repairman, and deliveryman. The only job I can think of that won't get mostly automated away are either jobs that require either/both lots of creative talent (such as a highly skilled engineer, artist, etc) or require an actual onsite presence (contractor, building inspector, pest control.)

jmcdiesel 10y ago
"No, many jobs aren't customer facing yet require you to be in a certain place at a certain time, such as most trades (carpentry and welding), long haul trucking, repairman, and deliveryman." What about those, if you're not interacting with the customer, requires a certain time? A repairman can work any time if hes not dealing with the customer - as long as the job is done on time. The same for all of these. Most of the things you listed are customer facing... which is why they have timeframes, so you can interact with the customer (or have access, etc).
- sheepmullet 10y ago
  A lot of jobs require coordination with other people. A truck driver can arrive whenever they want provided there are staff ready to unload when they arrive. An uncoordinated house build can take 2-3x as long due to trades waiting on each other. Etc.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > What about those, if you're not interacting with the customer, requires a certain time Well, two things. First, the article mentions having to be in a certain place at a certain time. You're just addressing the time component. Most jobs still need you to actually be there, such as trades and long haul trucking. (long haul trucking is the most common job in the united states http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-the-most-common-job-in-every-state http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-t...) > Most of the things you listed are customer facing I don't know what your definition of customer facing is. Long haul trucking certainly isn't, and if you're a welder, you don't actually have to see the customer. In fact, you usually talk to your account manager who dispatches you out to customer sites. > as long as the job is done on time No man is an island. Most of the time, you're part of a long chain of dependencies to get things done. If you're part of a team, you have to show up when they show up. You also have hard deadlines in order to unblock the people downstream for you. If the framing isn't done on schedule for a house, the electrical can't go in, and if the electrical isn't in, the drywall can't go in. You can't just "make up time" on the weekends.

kristineberth 10y ago

I'm all for flexible work arrangements for people, no matter what their gender. But I have to say I disagree with you. Many roles are not necessarily customer facing but require a lot of interaction with a team. In the startup world the pace at which you have to operate is relentless, and in many roles it's critical that numerous people work together on a variety of projects. Yes, you can dial someone in. You can try to schedule meetings around their particular schedule. But ultimately it is SO much easier to get things done if you're all in the same place (the office) for relatively similar core hours day-in and day-out. Ideas arise out of conversations. People end up becoming privvy to information and conversations that are perhaps only tangentially related to their role. Or they end up joining new projects rather informally and organically. Which is exactly what often leads to (and prepares you for) more senior roles. There are trade-offs that have to be made to work remotely or to have less face-to-face interaction with your teammates than others. In many cases these negatively impact your ability to move up, to succeed or to function well with a team. This is of course not true for every role or company, but it's true for many.