6 ms·

The article puts a strong emphasis in how (truly) flexible schedules benefit women but I think it applies just as well to men, particularly once you have childr

The article puts a strong emphasis in how (truly) flexible schedules benefit women but I think it applies just as well to men, particularly once you have children.

wmccullough 10y ago
Precisely. The flexibility would be helpful irrespective of gender. It says a lot about our culture (or lack thereof) that we even have this issue to start with.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  And that we find it to be an issue once it's a problem for women, whereas as long as it was a problem just for men it was perfectly fine.
  - cperciva 10y ago
    When people followed the gender roles of "women stay home and raise children; men leave their kids behind and go to work", neither gender had much overlap between employment and child care. Societal acceptance of men as performing child care lags behind societal acceptance of women as performing paid employment, so it's inevitable that the issues inherent in combining child care and paid employment have hit women first. It's important to raise awareness that this is an issue which affects both genders, but I wouldn't ascribe any malice to the fact that it first gained attention as an issue affecting women.
    - lostsock 10y ago
      Beautifully put!
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    No, that's nonsense and you are projecting your own insecurities onto this issue.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    That's mostly because of other men in a male dominated workplace. It is statistically not going to be a woman that they're lying to. That pesky toxic masculinity hurts men quite a bit, but a lot of men seem invested in maintaining it. Changing this status quo benefits everyone.
cperciva 10y ago
Indeed. The article cites the stigma of being the woman who can't come in to work because her child threw up -- but there's far more stigma attached to being the man who can't come in to work because his child threw up.
- dangerlibrary 10y ago
  I remember reading (found it: [0]) that men tend to lie about these situations and claim they have something not-childcare-related to do, whereas women are more likely to be honest about the reason for their absence. [0]: http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.0975 http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.0975
  - smelendez 10y ago
    That's fascinating. I wonder if it's true of absences from the workforce, as well. My suspicion is that "adventurous" reasons for taking time away from a typical career path--playing professional poker, sailing around the world, touring with a band--are rewarded in the job search, especially in men, while reasons like child or elder care are punished, especially in women. I'm not convinced that reflects who's actually going to be a valuable, committed employee.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > there's far more stigma attached to being the man who can't come in to work because his child threw up. I'm pretty spoiled ("privileged" might be a more accurate term), but I've called out fairly often due to having a much better time off policy than my wife - so when the kid is sick and can't go to daycare, I tend to pick up 75%+ of the stay-home time with her. I've never had a problem at work, and other dads at work have done the same thing. I literally can't imagine someone giving me shit about it, or a coworker suggesting that it's the woman's/mom's job to stay home with a sick child. I guess it's different in non-software fields?
  - sheepmullet 10y ago
    For the most part software dev is roughly results driven. I'd be surprised if your work was happy with you being 20-30% less productive than your coworkers for equal pay.
panoptispeech 10y ago
You are right. It's frustrating how often I see a good idea (like mandatory parental leave) being a thing for women instead of a thing for people in general. I wish I could point out the problems with this identity-focused marketing. If I did so in public, using my real identity, I would be fired, or at least receive very harsh feedback. It is depressing to be unable to speak up for my own interests.

The article puts a strong emphasis in how (truly) flexible schedules benefit women but I think it applies just as well to men, particularly once you have children.

wmccullough 10y ago

Precisely. The flexibility would be helpful irrespective of gender. It says a lot about our culture (or lack thereof) that we even have this issue to start with.

mpweiher 10y ago
And that we find it to be an issue once it's a problem for women, whereas as long as it was a problem just for men it was perfectly fine.
- cperciva 10y ago
  When people followed the gender roles of "women stay home and raise children; men leave their kids behind and go to work", neither gender had much overlap between employment and child care. Societal acceptance of men as performing child care lags behind societal acceptance of women as performing paid employment, so it's inevitable that the issues inherent in combining child care and paid employment have hit women first. It's important to raise awareness that this is an issue which affects both genders, but I wouldn't ascribe any malice to the fact that it first gained attention as an issue affecting women.
  - lostsock 10y ago
    Beautifully put!
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  No, that's nonsense and you are projecting your own insecurities onto this issue.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- KirinDave 10y ago
  That's mostly because of other men in a male dominated workplace. It is statistically not going to be a woman that they're lying to. That pesky toxic masculinity hurts men quite a bit, but a lot of men seem invested in maintaining it. Changing this status quo benefits everyone.

cperciva 10y ago

Indeed. The article cites the stigma of being the woman who can't come in to work because her child threw up -- but there's far more stigma attached to being the man who can't come in to work because his child threw up.

dangerlibrary 10y ago
I remember reading (found it: [0]) that men tend to lie about these situations and claim they have something not-childcare-related to do, whereas women are more likely to be honest about the reason for their absence. [0]: http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.0975 http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.0975
- smelendez 10y ago
  That's fascinating. I wonder if it's true of absences from the workforce, as well. My suspicion is that "adventurous" reasons for taking time away from a typical career path--playing professional poker, sailing around the world, touring with a band--are rewarded in the job search, especially in men, while reasons like child or elder care are punished, especially in women. I'm not convinced that reflects who's actually going to be a valuable, committed employee.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> there's far more stigma attached to being the man who can't come in to work because his child threw up. I'm pretty spoiled ("privileged" might be a more accurate term), but I've called out fairly often due to having a much better time off policy than my wife - so when the kid is sick and can't go to daycare, I tend to pick up 75%+ of the stay-home time with her. I've never had a problem at work, and other dads at work have done the same thing. I literally can't imagine someone giving me shit about it, or a coworker suggesting that it's the woman's/mom's job to stay home with a sick child. I guess it's different in non-software fields?
- sheepmullet 10y ago
  For the most part software dev is roughly results driven. I'd be surprised if your work was happy with you being 20-30% less productive than your coworkers for equal pay.

panoptispeech 10y ago

You are right. It's frustrating how often I see a good idea (like mandatory parental leave) being a thing for women instead of a thing for people in general. I wish I could point out the problems with this identity-focused marketing. If I did so in public, using my real identity, I would be fired, or at least receive very harsh feedback. It is depressing to be unable to speak up for my own interests.