8 ms·

> So how do you protect yourself? I don't believe any of the technical solutions mentioned in this thread; using a dumb phone, multiple identities and/or false

> So how do you protect yourself? I don't believe any of the technical solutions mentioned in this thread; using a dumb phone, multiple identities and/or false data for plausible deniability, wiping the phone before passing the border, is viable for a larger number of people. They also fail once a border agent insists on accessing an email account for which they know you have the password. The only protection is through protecting people legally. Once the border agencies can insist on accessing your email and cloud storage before letting you enter the country it seems like any arbitrary thought crime can deny you access.

psybin 10y ago
Lying to, or misleading a border agent is a felony in the US.
- wheelerwj 10y ago
  lying to ANY federal agent is illegal.
cylinder 10y ago
Just don't give them any passwords or unlock anything if you are a US citizen. Let them try to detain a US citizen indefinitely for it.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I wouldn't want to be that test case for the Trump administration.
- wfunction 10y ago
  Wasn't this guy a US citizen and didn't he still feel too scared to do this?
  - morgante 10y ago
    Yes, which makes this especially abhorrent. The government insists the searches are only of "visitors." Nobody has an obligation to refuse to comply (and be detained and/or jailed) but if put in this situation I would refuse. I'm not willingly giving up my rights without a court compelling me.
    - wheelerwj 10y ago
      a court can't compell you to give up your rights, otherwise they wouldn't be rights. but we already know there are nonrights at the border.
- leakybit 10y ago
  Exactly. It's your constitutional right as a US citizen to tell any Law Enforcement agent to go fuck themselves. 1. They need a warrant to search your phone if you don't voluntary give them access. 2. Even if they have a warrant, you can plead 5th and just not give them the pin. The American way is all about not trusting the government, believing in conspiracy theories, and stocking up on ammo.
  - theoh 10y ago
    Believing in conspiracy theories is, ironically, a way of attributing more power to the state/elite than it actually has. You're celebrating pathological thinking, especially when you claim that stocking up on ammo contributes to the functioning of a nation (in the loosest sense of "nation"). The days of militias are long gone.
    - LyndsySimon 10y ago
      > The days of militias are long gone. That's an interesting position, considering my state is still funding an organized state militia: http://www.vdf.virginia.gov/ http://www.vdf.virginia.gov/
  - daurnimator 10y ago
    IIRC if you are within 100 miles of the (actual) border or an international airport then are you considered to be entering/leaving the US and can be searched without a warrant. https://www.wired.com/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/ https://www.wired.com/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/ https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      Remember that the ACLU is a political organization and has its own spin on things. Just like any other org like the EFF, NRA, etc. In this case, the ACLU article on this topic is weasel worded and needs to be read carefully so you can seperate implication from fact.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. Fun fact: if you are mistakenly placed in immigration detention, you're not automatically entitled to a hearing until 6 months have passed, so you'd better hope someone knows to file a habeas petition on your behalf. In fact you're not automatically entitled to a hearing at all, but that was the working compromise established last time this ended up in court. Given the new administration's adversarial posture towards the judicial branch on the question of immigration reviewability, this is likely to change for the worse. . https://www.law360.com/articles/720066/2nd-circ-sets-6-month-limit-for-bail-on-ice-detentions https://www.law360.com/articles/720066/2nd-circ-sets-6-month...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - benevol 10y ago
    > CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. And to think that there are actually still people attracted to such a system and wanting to immigrate. It is amazing.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      The US (and a large number of companies built around helping people emigrate to the US) puts a lot of effort into marketing, and frankly speaking, it's not a lot worse than most places people emigrate to the US from.
- tammer 10y ago
  Well... sure. Problem is I don't have 6 weeks to sit in a detention cell waiting for the ACLU to clear my case.
  - sneak 10y ago
    That beats doing real time for the cleartext in your phone. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...
devoply 10y ago
> So how do you protect yourself? "Sorry, sir, I use a password keeper and left the password file at home. I do not have any passwords with me." That's not a lie, and I would love for them to explain to the judge if they did ever choose to detain you as to how this is not a valid and legal excuse and non-cooperation in any way. And if you are in doubt about saying something like this, actually use a password keeper, it's a good security practice. Further, do not bring any electronic device with you.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Meanwhile on HN: "man jailed indefinitely for not decrypting hard drives": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728
  - devoply 10y ago
    That's a different issue. When a court orders you to do something, then they would tell you to go back home and get the passwords or allow you the ability to do that. It's not reasonable for border security to expect you to carry your passwords with you at all time for all the services you use. It's a security risk to you, from third parties which might want to steal your data. Like for instance robbers that might force you to divulge your banking information at gun point.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      What does "reasonable" have to do with CBP? They can detain you for a surprisingly long time or deport you (complete with banning you from further entry if you're not actually a US national) for failure to comply.
- Erik816 10y ago
  Except you probably have a password manager client app on your phone so you can look up and enter any passwords you need for your own convenience.
  - 10y ago
branchless 10y ago
What if you simply don't have a facebook account. If I want to cross the USA border will they believe me?

psybin 10y ago

Lying to, or misleading a border agent is a felony in the US.

wheelerwj 10y ago
lying to ANY federal agent is illegal.

cylinder 10y ago

Just don't give them any passwords or unlock anything if you are a US citizen. Let them try to detain a US citizen indefinitely for it.

M_Grey 10y ago
I wouldn't want to be that test case for the Trump administration.
wfunction 10y ago
Wasn't this guy a US citizen and didn't he still feel too scared to do this?
- morgante 10y ago
  Yes, which makes this especially abhorrent. The government insists the searches are only of "visitors." Nobody has an obligation to refuse to comply (and be detained and/or jailed) but if put in this situation I would refuse. I'm not willingly giving up my rights without a court compelling me.
  - wheelerwj 10y ago
    a court can't compell you to give up your rights, otherwise they wouldn't be rights. but we already know there are nonrights at the border.
leakybit 10y ago
Exactly. It's your constitutional right as a US citizen to tell any Law Enforcement agent to go fuck themselves. 1. They need a warrant to search your phone if you don't voluntary give them access. 2. Even if they have a warrant, you can plead 5th and just not give them the pin. The American way is all about not trusting the government, believing in conspiracy theories, and stocking up on ammo.
- theoh 10y ago
  Believing in conspiracy theories is, ironically, a way of attributing more power to the state/elite than it actually has. You're celebrating pathological thinking, especially when you claim that stocking up on ammo contributes to the functioning of a nation (in the loosest sense of "nation"). The days of militias are long gone.
  - LyndsySimon 10y ago
    > The days of militias are long gone. That's an interesting position, considering my state is still funding an organized state militia: http://www.vdf.virginia.gov/ http://www.vdf.virginia.gov/
- daurnimator 10y ago
  IIRC if you are within 100 miles of the (actual) border or an international airport then are you considered to be entering/leaving the US and can be searched without a warrant. https://www.wired.com/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/ https://www.wired.com/2008/10/aclu-assails-10/ https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Remember that the ACLU is a political organization and has its own spin on things. Just like any other org like the EFF, NRA, etc. In this case, the ACLU article on this topic is weasel worded and needs to be read carefully so you can seperate implication from fact.
anigbrowl 10y ago
CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. Fun fact: if you are mistakenly placed in immigration detention, you're not automatically entitled to a hearing until 6 months have passed, so you'd better hope someone knows to file a habeas petition on your behalf. In fact you're not automatically entitled to a hearing at all, but that was the working compromise established last time this ended up in court. Given the new administration's adversarial posture towards the judicial branch on the question of immigration reviewability, this is likely to change for the worse. . https://www.law360.com/articles/720066/2nd-circ-sets-6-month-limit-for-bail-on-ice-detentions https://www.law360.com/articles/720066/2nd-circ-sets-6-month...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- benevol 10y ago
  > CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. And to think that there are actually still people attracted to such a system and wanting to immigrate. It is amazing.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    The US (and a large number of companies built around helping people emigrate to the US) puts a lot of effort into marketing, and frankly speaking, it's not a lot worse than most places people emigrate to the US from.
tammer 10y ago
Well... sure. Problem is I don't have 6 weeks to sit in a detention cell waiting for the ACLU to clear my case.
- sneak 10y ago
  That beats doing real time for the cleartext in your phone. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...

devoply 10y ago

> So how do you protect yourself? "Sorry, sir, I use a password keeper and left the password file at home. I do not have any passwords with me." That's not a lie, and I would love for them to explain to the judge if they did ever choose to detain you as to how this is not a valid and legal excuse and non-cooperation in any way. And if you are in doubt about saying something like this, actually use a password keeper, it's a good security practice. Further, do not bring any electronic device with you.

pjc50 10y ago
Meanwhile on HN: "man jailed indefinitely for not decrypting hard drives": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728
- devoply 10y ago
  That's a different issue. When a court orders you to do something, then they would tell you to go back home and get the passwords or allow you the ability to do that. It's not reasonable for border security to expect you to carry your passwords with you at all time for all the services you use. It's a security risk to you, from third parties which might want to steal your data. Like for instance robbers that might force you to divulge your banking information at gun point.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    What does "reasonable" have to do with CBP? They can detain you for a surprisingly long time or deport you (complete with banning you from further entry if you're not actually a US national) for failure to comply.
Erik816 10y ago
Except you probably have a password manager client app on your phone so you can look up and enter any passwords you need for your own convenience.
- 10y ago

branchless 10y ago

What if you simply don't have a facebook account. If I want to cross the USA border will they believe me?