4 ms·

Does socialism work? A classroom experiment

7 points by wolfgke 10y ago

headShrinker 10y ago
Does capitalism work. A real world experiment. Answer: no.
tim333 10y ago
What a rubbish article - there was no experiment - it's a right wing parable misrepresenting reality. > That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich As if that was even a thing.
xt00 10y ago
Pretty simplistic because obviously this is an extreme case to average all scores. But if you took 10% of the top score and added to the bottom scores it's more like a tax and the people at the top probably don't mind as much. I think when it comes to things like universal basic income, the idea to pay people directly implies that there is a base level of money that results in people being somewhat satisfied. But in reality I don't think it would ever. In Seattle where I live, some homeless people live in tents below the freeway near downtown because that is the only place they can afford within the area they want to be at. So if they had a basic income that allowed them to afford a house 30 miles from downtown would they live there? Good chance some would but some would not. Basically socialism only works if people think they are getting a good deal. That's how most people feel in countries like Sweden. They feel like they have a really nice country and really nice doctors and schools and services. The taxes are high on the rich but even the rich are not complaining too much. I think capitalism is a good way to motivate people but it's kind of like a game theory thing.. Basically you have to come up with a way to benefit the group in order to help yourself. The lone rich guy might actually not be rich for long if the mob comes and takes it away. The discussion about the middle class disappearing I think is code for "jobs that used to pay really well for doing not that hard of jobs are going away".. Like in an era when robots can move pallets back and forth in a warehouse 24/7 should a forklift driver make $30/hr? The basic point is that jobs that are easy to replace either with a robot, a foreign worker, or less people we should expect there will be less of them. So training our workforce needs to be tailored to suit that reality.
- neilwilson 10y ago
  "Pretty simplistic because obviously this is an extreme case to average all scores." It's simplistic because it assumes all that motivates people are scores and counters. In other words money. Psychology shows that isn't the case. The very existence of open source software shows that isn't the case. I'm not sat here with an Elm program because I'm looking to get an A. I'm enjoying the act of creation.
lucideer 10y ago
How did something this intellectually bereft make it onto HN?
- tim333 10y ago
  Guess you can submit anything and seven people have upvoted, quite likely of a certain political persuasion. It didn't really seem significant enough to even bother flagging though I guess you could.
josh_fyi 10y ago
Huh? Top universities have severe grade inflation, which is close to what is described here. And grads of these universities still rule the world. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-...
neilwilson 10y ago
The experiment should be to see how many logical fallacies you can find in this very silly response. zero sum thinking is just the first.
externalreality 10y ago
The article describes something more akin to communism than socialism. Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive . The (fictitious) professor's class room already ran much like the United States does before the (fictitious) experiment, that is, everyone is guaranteed at least the same lesson (socialism) and what you do with that lesson to benefit yourself is up to you (capitalism). In reality and to follow the articles misguided analogy, most top universities curve (inflate) student grades much like the United States' overly capitalist system has established what is akin to corporate well-fair. In fact the U.S has gotten to the point where the only entities with rights are businesses and the wealthy - if you want rights and well-fair in the U.S. start a business its the only way. This is evidenced by the fact that only 2% of civilian legal issues in the U.S. ever see trial or legal mediation while the majority of all business legal situation get the full attention of the judiciary system. More social programs in the U.S. in the U.S. apply to businesses not people.
- tim333 10y ago
  I was thinking not even the hardline communist countries gave students the same result in exams.
bobbytherobot 10y ago
Clearly, this story is fictional. Let's say it is truthful. Then let's simply examining the very first sentence: "An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class." How did he never fail a single student before?

7 points by wolfgke 10y ago

Does capitalism work. A real world experiment. Answer: no.

What a rubbish article - there was no experiment - it's a right wing parable misrepresenting reality. > That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich As if that was even a thing.

xt00 10y ago

Pretty simplistic because obviously this is an extreme case to average all scores. But if you took 10% of the top score and added to the bottom scores it's more like a tax and the people at the top probably don't mind as much. I think when it comes to things like universal basic income, the idea to pay people directly implies that there is a base level of money that results in people being somewhat satisfied. But in reality I don't think it would ever. In Seattle where I live, some homeless people live in tents below the freeway near downtown because that is the only place they can afford within the area they want to be at. So if they had a basic income that allowed them to afford a house 30 miles from downtown would they live there? Good chance some would but some would not. Basically socialism only works if people think they are getting a good deal. That's how most people feel in countries like Sweden. They feel like they have a really nice country and really nice doctors and schools and services. The taxes are high on the rich but even the rich are not complaining too much. I think capitalism is a good way to motivate people but it's kind of like a game theory thing.. Basically you have to come up with a way to benefit the group in order to help yourself. The lone rich guy might actually not be rich for long if the mob comes and takes it away. The discussion about the middle class disappearing I think is code for "jobs that used to pay really well for doing not that hard of jobs are going away".. Like in an era when robots can move pallets back and forth in a warehouse 24/7 should a forklift driver make $30/hr? The basic point is that jobs that are easy to replace either with a robot, a foreign worker, or less people we should expect there will be less of them. So training our workforce needs to be tailored to suit that reality.

neilwilson 10y ago
"Pretty simplistic because obviously this is an extreme case to average all scores." It's simplistic because it assumes all that motivates people are scores and counters. In other words money. Psychology shows that isn't the case. The very existence of open source software shows that isn't the case. I'm not sat here with an Elm program because I'm looking to get an A. I'm enjoying the act of creation.

lucideer 10y ago

How did something this intellectually bereft make it onto HN?

tim333 10y ago
Guess you can submit anything and seven people have upvoted, quite likely of a certain political persuasion. It didn't really seem significant enough to even bother flagging though I guess you could.

josh_fyi 10y ago

Huh? Top universities have severe grade inflation, which is close to what is described here. And grads of these universities still rule the world. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-mode-a/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/12/3/grade-inflation-...

neilwilson 10y ago

The experiment should be to see how many logical fallacies you can find in this very silly response. zero sum thinking is just the first.

externalreality 10y ago

The article describes something more akin to communism than socialism. Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive . The (fictitious) professor's class room already ran much like the United States does before the (fictitious) experiment, that is, everyone is guaranteed at least the same lesson (socialism) and what you do with that lesson to benefit yourself is up to you (capitalism). In reality and to follow the articles misguided analogy, most top universities curve (inflate) student grades much like the United States' overly capitalist system has established what is akin to corporate well-fair. In fact the U.S has gotten to the point where the only entities with rights are businesses and the wealthy - if you want rights and well-fair in the U.S. start a business its the only way. This is evidenced by the fact that only 2% of civilian legal issues in the U.S. ever see trial or legal mediation while the majority of all business legal situation get the full attention of the judiciary system. More social programs in the U.S. in the U.S. apply to businesses not people.

tim333 10y ago
I was thinking not even the hardline communist countries gave students the same result in exams.

bobbytherobot 10y ago

Clearly, this story is fictional. Let's say it is truthful. Then let's simply examining the very first sentence: "An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class." How did he never fail a single student before?