8 ms·

India's iconic Ambassador car brand is sold to Peugeot

95 points by happy-go-lucky 10y ago

sdfaasdf 10y ago
Has Peugeot lost its mind ? This is like buying the brand name of TVS XL 100 or Kinetic Luna. The French must be drunk over after the Dassault rip-off they pulled off.
- nojvek 10y ago
  For $12m it seems like a bargain.
technologia 10y ago
I remember riding in this vehicle and feeling the number of things that went wrong in their construction. Honestly its hard to extricate such a POS car from my memories in India.
unmole 10y ago
> the Ambassador was for three decades India's bestselling car That's because there were no other manufacturers.
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  There were: Sipani Automobiles Ltd. and Maruti Udyog Limited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Suzuki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Suzuki
  - unmole 10y ago
    Maruti was founded in 1981 and it was the beginning of the end for the Ambassador. Premier was a much bigger player than Sipani.
- IgorPartola 10y ago
  I was going to ask that. 20k sales per year in a country with 1b people seems really low.
  - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
    It was so low because of the per capita income that was equally low, and looking into reasons for such a disproportion would lead to a wide-ranging discussion.
  - chrismorgan 10y ago
    In cities like Kolkata the taxi fleet is Ambassadors. I don’t know what the average age of the vehicles is, but they almost always feel as old as they look. For all its faults, the Ambassador is a robust vehicle.
  - bbgm 10y ago
    Times have changed a lot. It wasn't until the 90s that the average middle class family could afford a car. The father bought his first car at about the same time I did, except he was 50 and I had just started grad school in the US. Cars were definitely a luxury item while I was growing up. Better incomes, more choice, ability to get car loans, etc have made cars the norm now (in big cities at least).
nautical 10y ago
Ambassador and Maruti are very popular Indian cars . Ambassador being the car used by almost all government officials .
currywurst 10y ago
I'm really impressed with the new Peugot 3008 i-Cockpit system [https://youtu.be/5UapzN65V7Q?t=1m16s https://youtu.be/5UapzN65V7Q?t=1m16s] and the general interior design. IMHO way ahead of the competition. This is a really surprising development! The Peugeot leadership seems to be unafraid to think different, and I think great things are in store for the Ambassador brand. It was totally neglected for decades.
- sreenadh 10y ago
  I am hoping that Contessa also comes back.
- izacus 10y ago
  I've tested the new Peugeot 508 and 307 and they had horrible infotainment software - slow, buggy and very illogical (some settings couldn't be controled from steering wheel, some settings were only available on the screen on the dashboard, etc.) The fact that 307 got rid of climate control buttons and only had the settings on the laggy touchscreen was even worse. Did 3008 really improve that much in this regard?
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    307 isn't particularly new, though. Production ended in 2007 (except in South America and China). I agree that putting controls behind a touch screen is not nice. Especially in the winter where I live, they're impossible - they don't work in the cold, with gloves.
- sz4kerto 10y ago
  I have no problem with Peugeots in general, but the 3008 has a particularly problematic driving assist system -- it is actually dangerous.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
EddieSpeaks 10y ago
This 1995 ad makes total sense now https://youtu.be/No26JKQKZNE https://youtu.be/No26JKQKZNE
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
To what degree did India mortgage its industrial future in its protectionist era?
- sdfaasdf 10y ago
  Take a guess. China, India had similar GDP per-capita figures in late 70s (Korea was poorer at one point). India never suffered from war and dictatorial madness like Korea and China, yet today India has < 1/5 GDP of China, and about ~< 2x the GDP of S.Korea (with 10-20x the population). All this for what ? Some anti-colonial revolution ? Nope. India has almost completely ignored everything Indian, if not actively tried to destroy its traditions/languages/cultures and has ran after who ever would care to smooch over its "elite". India is as much a British colony today (if not more) than it ever was.
  - throwaway2048 10y ago
    Add into this that the country has a huge amount of english speakers, and is also a democracy.
    - sdfaasdf 10y ago
      ... and this is supposed to be good, why ? Because the WASPs brainwash us into thinking so ? Because it pays good money ? The systems we live under are barely different from feudal systems from Europe. Now we just get blamed for all the shit, because you know.. "democracy". Give someone a toothpick to fight against those wielding guns, and call it even - that is democracy.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        It definitely helps Indian trade with North America and Europe, and also other regions, that much of the population speaks English. Particularly in areas like software contracting.
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > India never suffered from war After Independence and Partition? India never had to deal with war??
taneq 10y ago
I wonder if any of that $12 million will go to paying out the workers who were left stranded by the company? If the linked story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36044903 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36044903) is anything to go by, the employees got severely screwed when the plant shut down.
- dominotw 10y ago
  >the employees got severely screwed when the plant shut down. Isn't that the case everywhere? Why do these workers in particular deserve 'pay outs'? These workers seemed to have got screwed by the globalisation like people from soviet union who had no idea how to make sense of the new world where govt is not resposible to provide you with a job anymore.
  - taneq 10y ago
    Well there's this guy: > Nirmal Kumar Ram, who worked at the factory's engine plant, says he has not yet left his job because Hindustan Motors has still not told workers that they were fired. Instead of communicating with the employees they just kind of forgot about them. And this guy: > "Even before production stopped, I didn't get my salary for six months." The company wasn't paying the employees, of course it's impossible to know what was said but you wouldn't think that he'd be waiting around for six months unpaid if they weren't telling him it was coming.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  That article doesn't tell me that the employees would have been defrauded or somehow deceived by their employer. Rather than selling out too soon, it seems that the Hindustan company tried to stay in its old ways for far too long.
jamescun 10y ago
The Ambassador is based on the Morris Oxford, a British car from the 1950s, and I am fascinated that they never felt any pressure to update the design (although if I recall correctly in the early 2000s they replaced the original British Motor Company 1.5L with an Isuzu 1.6L).
- ptaipale 10y ago
  In a planned, protectionist economy, without competition, there was little need to develop or improve.
- gumby 10y ago
  > I am fascinated that they never felt any pressure to update the design What slander, Ambassador issued updated models from time to time, changing the shape of the headlamps and the like!
- jdietrich 10y ago
  Royal Enfield still do good business in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_(India)
ganeshkrishnan 10y ago
It's funny and coincidental that many years ago Peugot ran this ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcVyz-fZIzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcVyz-fZIzg The car that is being molded is Ambassador
- ptaipale 10y ago
  The news also instantly reminded me of this ad.
  - riteshkpr 10y ago
    I know which ad you're referring to. Don't have to click this link, it was a catchy one!
Shivetya 10y ago
there is a lot of manufacturing taking place in India by very large brands and some of it for export. Motorcycles and such are being built there for export by brands even as iconic as BMW and Harley Davidson. So buying up an already established brand is probably cheaper than building the factory (new construction, bribes, etc) to get manufacturing capacity where labor is cheap
- ptaipale 10y ago
  This is a good point. If you want to access the Indian market, your problem probably isn't building a plant, or finding competent labour, or buying materials or logistics. It is the licenses and permissions to operate, and the relations to government officials. And if you can purchase an existing outfit that has at least some of the needed licenses and permissions and has some existing government contacts, contracts and agreements, then it is easier to ramp up business.
prodmerc 10y ago
So what? Tata Motors owns Jaguar, Fiat owns Jeep, BMW owns the Mini, I don't see anything interesting here...
ceocoder 10y ago
> The handbrake rarely worked properly - instead > spawning a generation of drivers that could easily > do hill starts deftly balancing the accelerator and brake That'd be me. When I bought my Mitsubishi Lancer Hatchback with manual transmission in the US, having a working handbrake was a jarring experience. My friends spent a lot of time helping me break my habit of using gas and brake pedals for keeping the car balanced up hill - I can still do it well. I'd like to note that this feature wasn't exclusively limited to Ambassadors, my dad owned a Maruti 800[1], and a Fiat Padmini[2], neither of those had working handbrakes AND my dad managed to install aftermarket LGP kit in former and a datsun diesel engine in latter. Both modifications made it an interesting driving experience. These days when I'm driving my automatic transmission car on a freeway with no potholes, cows, I do get some flashbacks of driving in pouring rain with water creeping up from floor and being scared out of my wits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Padmini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Padmini
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  > That'd be me. When I bought my Mitsubishi Lancer Hatchback with manual transmission in the US, having a working handbrake was a jarring experience. My friends spent a lot of time helping me break my habit of using gas and brake pedals for keeping the car balanced up hill - I can still do it well. You mean people actually use the handbrake for hill starts with a manual? I thought it was just something you do when first learning. I've always found it more difficult to coordinate everything with the handbrake, I can operate all the pedals quick enough anyway. The only time I use the handbrake really is for sliding around :-)
  - lmm 10y ago
    No, it's something you're taught to do generally. It's going to be 3 inputs either way (accel, brake, clutch - 4 if you count steering), most people find it easier to do them independently with two feet and one hand than to have one foot do two inputs.
  - hlidotbe 10y ago
korginator 10y ago
I don't get it. What is the point of this purchase?

Has Peugeot lost its mind ? This is like buying the brand name of TVS XL 100 or Kinetic Luna. The French must be drunk over after the Dassault rip-off they pulled off.

nojvek 10y ago
For $12m it seems like a bargain.

technologia 10y ago

I remember riding in this vehicle and feeling the number of things that went wrong in their construction. Honestly its hard to extricate such a POS car from my memories in India.

unmole 10y ago

> the Ambassador was for three decades India's bestselling car That's because there were no other manufacturers.

happy-go-lucky 10y ago
There were: Sipani Automobiles Ltd. and Maruti Udyog Limited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Suzuki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Suzuki
- unmole 10y ago
  Maruti was founded in 1981 and it was the beginning of the end for the Ambassador. Premier was a much bigger player than Sipani.
IgorPartola 10y ago
I was going to ask that. 20k sales per year in a country with 1b people seems really low.
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  It was so low because of the per capita income that was equally low, and looking into reasons for such a disproportion would lead to a wide-ranging discussion.
- chrismorgan 10y ago
  In cities like Kolkata the taxi fleet is Ambassadors. I don’t know what the average age of the vehicles is, but they almost always feel as old as they look. For all its faults, the Ambassador is a robust vehicle.
- bbgm 10y ago
  Times have changed a lot. It wasn't until the 90s that the average middle class family could afford a car. The father bought his first car at about the same time I did, except he was 50 and I had just started grad school in the US. Cars were definitely a luxury item while I was growing up. Better incomes, more choice, ability to get car loans, etc have made cars the norm now (in big cities at least).

nautical 10y ago

Ambassador and Maruti are very popular Indian cars . Ambassador being the car used by almost all government officials .

currywurst 10y ago

I'm really impressed with the new Peugot 3008 i-Cockpit system [https://youtu.be/5UapzN65V7Q?t=1m16s https://youtu.be/5UapzN65V7Q?t=1m16s] and the general interior design. IMHO way ahead of the competition. This is a really surprising development! The Peugeot leadership seems to be unafraid to think different, and I think great things are in store for the Ambassador brand. It was totally neglected for decades.

sreenadh 10y ago
I am hoping that Contessa also comes back.
izacus 10y ago
I've tested the new Peugeot 508 and 307 and they had horrible infotainment software - slow, buggy and very illogical (some settings couldn't be controled from steering wheel, some settings were only available on the screen on the dashboard, etc.) The fact that 307 got rid of climate control buttons and only had the settings on the laggy touchscreen was even worse. Did 3008 really improve that much in this regard?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  307 isn't particularly new, though. Production ended in 2007 (except in South America and China). I agree that putting controls behind a touch screen is not nice. Especially in the winter where I live, they're impossible - they don't work in the cold, with gloves.
sz4kerto 10y ago
I have no problem with Peugeots in general, but the 3008 has a particularly problematic driving assist system -- it is actually dangerous.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

EddieSpeaks 10y ago

This 1995 ad makes total sense now https://youtu.be/No26JKQKZNE https://youtu.be/No26JKQKZNE

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

To what degree did India mortgage its industrial future in its protectionist era?

sdfaasdf 10y ago
Take a guess. China, India had similar GDP per-capita figures in late 70s (Korea was poorer at one point). India never suffered from war and dictatorial madness like Korea and China, yet today India has < 1/5 GDP of China, and about ~< 2x the GDP of S.Korea (with 10-20x the population). All this for what ? Some anti-colonial revolution ? Nope. India has almost completely ignored everything Indian, if not actively tried to destroy its traditions/languages/cultures and has ran after who ever would care to smooch over its "elite". India is as much a British colony today (if not more) than it ever was.
- throwaway2048 10y ago
  Add into this that the country has a huge amount of english speakers, and is also a democracy.
  - sdfaasdf 10y ago
    ... and this is supposed to be good, why ? Because the WASPs brainwash us into thinking so ? Because it pays good money ? The systems we live under are barely different from feudal systems from Europe. Now we just get blamed for all the shit, because you know.. "democracy". Give someone a toothpick to fight against those wielding guns, and call it even - that is democracy.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      It definitely helps Indian trade with North America and Europe, and also other regions, that much of the population speaks English. Particularly in areas like software contracting.
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > India never suffered from war After Independence and Partition? India never had to deal with war??

taneq 10y ago

I wonder if any of that $12 million will go to paying out the workers who were left stranded by the company? If the linked story (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36044903 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36044903) is anything to go by, the employees got severely screwed when the plant shut down.

dominotw 10y ago
>the employees got severely screwed when the plant shut down. Isn't that the case everywhere? Why do these workers in particular deserve 'pay outs'? These workers seemed to have got screwed by the globalisation like people from soviet union who had no idea how to make sense of the new world where govt is not resposible to provide you with a job anymore.
- taneq 10y ago
  Well there's this guy: > Nirmal Kumar Ram, who worked at the factory's engine plant, says he has not yet left his job because Hindustan Motors has still not told workers that they were fired. Instead of communicating with the employees they just kind of forgot about them. And this guy: > "Even before production stopped, I didn't get my salary for six months." The company wasn't paying the employees, of course it's impossible to know what was said but you wouldn't think that he'd be waiting around for six months unpaid if they weren't telling him it was coming.
ptaipale 10y ago
That article doesn't tell me that the employees would have been defrauded or somehow deceived by their employer. Rather than selling out too soon, it seems that the Hindustan company tried to stay in its old ways for far too long.

jamescun 10y ago

The Ambassador is based on the Morris Oxford, a British car from the 1950s, and I am fascinated that they never felt any pressure to update the design (although if I recall correctly in the early 2000s they replaced the original British Motor Company 1.5L with an Isuzu 1.6L).

ptaipale 10y ago
In a planned, protectionist economy, without competition, there was little need to develop or improve.
gumby 10y ago
> I am fascinated that they never felt any pressure to update the design What slander, Ambassador issued updated models from time to time, changing the shape of the headlamps and the like!
jdietrich 10y ago
Royal Enfield still do good business in India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_(India) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_(India)

ganeshkrishnan 10y ago

It's funny and coincidental that many years ago Peugot ran this ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcVyz-fZIzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcVyz-fZIzg The car that is being molded is Ambassador

ptaipale 10y ago
The news also instantly reminded me of this ad.
- riteshkpr 10y ago
  I know which ad you're referring to. Don't have to click this link, it was a catchy one!

Shivetya 10y ago

there is a lot of manufacturing taking place in India by very large brands and some of it for export. Motorcycles and such are being built there for export by brands even as iconic as BMW and Harley Davidson. So buying up an already established brand is probably cheaper than building the factory (new construction, bribes, etc) to get manufacturing capacity where labor is cheap

ptaipale 10y ago
This is a good point. If you want to access the Indian market, your problem probably isn't building a plant, or finding competent labour, or buying materials or logistics. It is the licenses and permissions to operate, and the relations to government officials. And if you can purchase an existing outfit that has at least some of the needed licenses and permissions and has some existing government contacts, contracts and agreements, then it is easier to ramp up business.

prodmerc 10y ago

So what? Tata Motors owns Jaguar, Fiat owns Jeep, BMW owns the Mini, I don't see anything interesting here...

ceocoder 10y ago

> The handbrake rarely worked properly - instead > spawning a generation of drivers that could easily > do hill starts deftly balancing the accelerator and brake That'd be me. When I bought my Mitsubishi Lancer Hatchback with manual transmission in the US, having a working handbrake was a jarring experience. My friends spent a lot of time helping me break my habit of using gas and brake pedals for keeping the car balanced up hill - I can still do it well. I'd like to note that this feature wasn't exclusively limited to Ambassadors, my dad owned a Maruti 800[1], and a Fiat Padmini[2], neither of those had working handbrakes AND my dad managed to install aftermarket LGP kit in former and a datsun diesel engine in latter. Both modifications made it an interesting driving experience. These days when I'm driving my automatic transmission car on a freeway with no potholes, cows, I do get some flashbacks of driving in pouring rain with water creeping up from floor and being scared out of my wits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Padmini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Padmini

Mikeb85 10y ago
> That'd be me. When I bought my Mitsubishi Lancer Hatchback with manual transmission in the US, having a working handbrake was a jarring experience. My friends spent a lot of time helping me break my habit of using gas and brake pedals for keeping the car balanced up hill - I can still do it well. You mean people actually use the handbrake for hill starts with a manual? I thought it was just something you do when first learning. I've always found it more difficult to coordinate everything with the handbrake, I can operate all the pedals quick enough anyway. The only time I use the handbrake really is for sliding around :-)
- lmm 10y ago
  No, it's something you're taught to do generally. It's going to be 3 inputs either way (accel, brake, clutch - 4 if you count steering), most people find it easier to do them independently with two feet and one hand than to have one foot do two inputs.
- hlidotbe 10y ago

korginator 10y ago

I don't get it. What is the point of this purchase?